Shotley Bridge swordmakers

Jim McDougall · 26th April 2024, 05:32 PM

Well noted Keith! and the idea of 'slippers' mounting hilts on Islay is pretty exciting! I have wondered where to discover more on this as I have a keen interest in the Isles. As we know, the 'mortuary' (a Victorian collectors 'catch' term) was actually a hilt style in use early in the 17th, before the death of Charles I, whose likeness on many of these was proposed as the source of that term.

In most cases, popular hilt styles did not suddenly 'go out of fashion' as suggested in some literature. With tradition, styles and fashion tended to predominate in 'periods' (another vague historical delineation) and often continued in favor contemporary to other forms supplanting the forms.

The case you note of old hilts being mounted with more modern blades was actually common, as well as vice versa, heirloom blades in newer hilts.
While fashion of course prevails popularly, tradition is much stronger and much part of the ethos and honor held by the arme blanche.

urbanspaceman · 26th April 2024, 06:48 PM

It was battering my brain working out why, and who, and where, so I want to present some facts regarding the provenance of these two identical caskets.
Obviously made some considerable time after the Germans brought those blades into Shotley Bridge in 1687 as they have estimated the date as: circa.1680.
My casket was made for Thomas Wentworth, 1st Marquess of Rockingham (b.1693) South Yorkshire, who's father had apparently inherited the sword (s) from his uncle, 2nd Earl of Stafford, who had been a close friend and supporter of King James II.
The only conclusion I can achieve is that both swords eventually belonged to the above Thomas Wentworth and/or his family.
It remains puzzling why one sword and casket should end up back in Shotley Bridge, and the other remain in the Wentworth-Woodhouse mansion until the mid.1960s when the sword was given to the Royal Armouries in nearby Leeds and the casket sold in an estate sale but remaining locally until I bought it recently.
The reason I have devoted this effort in sourcing the history is because it indicates distinctly how so much reverence was attached to these swords that expensive caskets were commissioned many years later to put them on display in the mansion house.
Of course, the swords may have remained in hiding long after the above and until any suspicion of Jacobite affiliations in the family had long been forgotten!

urbanspaceman · 26th April 2024, 11:07 PM

My collaborator Paul bought his sword and casket from the son of a man called Stafford.
Reference my short history above... that is quite some coincidence!

Jim McDougall · 27th April 2024, 03:27 AM

Keith, I became interested in the British swords of Hounslow and Shotley about 40 years ago, and while I was able to plow through most of the known published esoterica on these areas of sword making in England, between the 'lore' and huge gaps......overall this was simply a huge mystery.

There it remained, and the mention of either of these centers or their history was usually brief or virtually cliche'. While some of the venerable arms sages wrote very informative works on these topics, they could only go so far using established material.

Your study on these topics these past years has been UNPARALLELED !
to say the least, and as a native son of Shotley, you have brought this history to the fore, and literally preserved it through your discoveries and remarkably well discerned collection of key examples worthy of any world class museum.

I have been wanting to say this publicly for some time, and wanted to thank you, for putting this history into its proper perspective! well done Keith!

urbanspaceman · 27th April 2024, 11:05 AM

Thank-you Jim... but you failed to mention that without you and Peter mentoring me throughout I may well have fallen at the first hurdle. As it was, I had put the entire project on the back burner, considering it beyond my capabilities, and it was only when the Convid lock-down occurred that I brought it to the fore again. Thank-you once again. You and Peter continue to fly my flag and it is much appreciated.

Jim McDougall · 27th April 2024, 02:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by urbanspaceman

Thank-you Jim... but you failed to mention that without you and Peter mentoring me throughout I may well have fallen at the first hurdle. As it was, I had put the entire project on the back burner, considering it beyond my capabilities, and it was only when the Convid lock-down occurred that I brought it to the fore again. Thank-you once again. You and Peter continue to fly my flag and it is much appreciated.

You bet Keith! it was indeed the 'four'musketeers' !! (not sure which of us was D'Artagnan). Still, you ran point on the research and ESPECIALLY the collecting. You found examples that should be collectively in museum holdings as they totally support the theories that you put forth in entirely revising much of the commonly held lore on Hounslow and Shotley. It has been one of the most exciting and intriguing adventures I have experienced in my lifelong fascination with the history of the sword.
The book is FANTASTIC! and has inspired renewed interest in the Shotley Bridge community where both you and Peter are native sons and have so proudly represented your home.

Peter Hudson · 27th April 2024, 10:56 PM

Hello Jim and Keith...

Last week I met Keith for lunch at the famous pub in Shotley Bridge albeit in the section that used to be called Commercial Hotel. The sign outside was changed in the summer of 64 and any flat and painted sign boards were removed...In fact I recall that before that there was a sign still seen on some old fotos of the flat painted name of that part of the hotel The new sign is infact not a bad effort at a pair of swords below a crown but is nothing like the original sign which oddly enough was about 20 yards further down the building above the main pub doors and was two basket hilts below a crown..In this case the items making up the sign were realistic but workshop made sword likenesses but in the form of Basket Hilts. Previous to this date there was another name switch when the name of the property was Commercial Hotel and the other part The Swords. There are no pictures to my knowledge of the original pub sign with the Basket Hilts...Actually a number of other organisations adopted all or part of the Crown and Crossed Swords as company Logos such as The Shotley Bridge Hospital and The Richard Murray Maternity Hospital...and Wilkinson Swords adopted the crossed swords without a crown...Peter Hudson.

urbanspaceman · 29th April 2024, 04:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by urbanspaceman

My collaborator Paul bought his sword and casket from the son of a man called Stafford.
Reference my short history above... that is quite some coincidence!

My apologies for my carelessness; it was the Earl of Strafford not Stafford. Ooops!

Peter Hudson · 30th April 2024, 02:31 PM

There is an excellent picture of the subject at https://www.npg.org.uk/collections/s.../?mkey=mw06088

urbanspaceman · 30th April 2024, 06:23 PM

Hi Peter. Thank-you, a good shot; I will send it to Paul.
Curious sword he is wearing.
I often wonder just how accurate artists were; artistic license prevailing always.

Jim McDougall · 1st May 2024, 01:08 AM

I think as a rule, in accord with the late Nick Norman ("Rapier and Smallsword 1460-1820", 1979) he based his entire work on hilts taken from portraits as in his view portraits of individuals tended to be accurate, including the swords they wore. In other artwork, especially Rembrandt for example, his 'license' was well known.

Sets the mind to wondering!

26th April 2024, 06:48 PM	#2
urbanspaceman Member Join Date: Sep 2017 Location: Tyneside. North-East England Posts: 517	Sword casket It was battering my brain working out why, and who, and where, so I want to present some facts regarding the provenance of these two identical caskets. Obviously made some considerable time after the Germans brought those blades into Shotley Bridge in 1687 as they have estimated the date as: circa.1680. My casket was made for Thomas Wentworth, 1st Marquess of Rockingham (b.1693) South Yorkshire, who's father had apparently inherited the sword (s) from his uncle, 2nd Earl of Stafford, who had been a close friend and supporter of King James II. The only conclusion I can achieve is that both swords eventually belonged to the above Thomas Wentworth and/or his family. It remains puzzling why one sword and casket should end up back in Shotley Bridge, and the other remain in the Wentworth-Woodhouse mansion until the mid.1960s when the sword was given to the Royal Armouries in nearby Leeds and the casket sold in an estate sale but remaining locally until I bought it recently. The reason I have devoted this effort in sourcing the history is because it indicates distinctly how so much reverence was attached to these swords that expensive caskets were commissioned many years later to put them on display in the mansion house. Of course, the swords may have remained in hiding long after the above and until any suspicion of Jacobite affiliations in the family had long been forgotten! Last edited by urbanspaceman; 26th April 2024 at 11:09 PM.

26th April 2024, 11:07 PM	#3
urbanspaceman Member Join Date: Sep 2017 Location: Tyneside. North-East England Posts: 517	coincidence My collaborator Paul bought his sword and casket from the son of a man called Stafford. Reference my short history above... that is quite some coincidence!

27th April 2024, 11:05 AM	#5
urbanspaceman Member Join Date: Sep 2017 Location: Tyneside. North-East England Posts: 517	Response Thank-you Jim... but you failed to mention that without you and Peter mentoring me throughout I may well have fallen at the first hurdle. As it was, I had put the entire project on the back burner, considering it beyond my capabilities, and it was only when the Convid lock-down occurred that I brought it to the fore again. Thank-you once again. You and Peter continue to fly my flag and it is much appreciated. Last edited by urbanspaceman; 27th April 2024 at 11:06 AM. Reason: typo

27th April 2024, 10:56 PM	#7
Peter Hudson Member Join Date: Jul 2020 Posts: 311	The Crown and Crossed Swords. Hello Jim and Keith... Last week I met Keith for lunch at the famous pub in Shotley Bridge albeit in the section that used to be called Commercial Hotel. The sign outside was changed in the summer of 64 and any flat and painted sign boards were removed...In fact I recall that before that there was a sign still seen on some old fotos of the flat painted name of that part of the hotel The new sign is infact not a bad effort at a pair of swords below a crown but is nothing like the original sign which oddly enough was about 20 yards further down the building above the main pub doors and was two basket hilts below a crown..In this case the items making up the sign were realistic but workshop made sword likenesses but in the form of Basket Hilts. Previous to this date there was another name switch when the name of the property was Commercial Hotel and the other part The Swords. There are no pictures to my knowledge of the original pub sign with the Basket Hilts...Actually a number of other organisations adopted all or part of the Crown and Crossed Swords as company Logos such as The Shotley Bridge Hospital and The Richard Murray Maternity Hospital...and Wilkinson Swords adopted the crossed swords without a crown...Peter Hudson.

30th April 2024, 06:23 PM	#10
urbanspaceman Member Join Date: Sep 2017 Location: Tyneside. North-East England Posts: 517	Sword in the picture Hi Peter. Thank-you, a good shot; I will send it to Paul. Curious sword he is wearing. I often wonder just how accurate artists were; artistic license prevailing always.

26th April 2024, 05:32 PM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,785	Well noted Keith! and the idea of 'slippers' mounting hilts on Islay is pretty exciting! I have wondered where to discover more on this as I have a keen interest in the Isles. As we know, the 'mortuary' (a Victorian collectors 'catch' term) was actually a hilt style in use early in the 17th, before the death of Charles I, whose likeness on many of these was proposed as the source of that term. In most cases, popular hilt styles did not suddenly 'go out of fashion' as suggested in some literature. With tradition, styles and fashion tended to predominate in 'periods' (another vague historical delineation) and often continued in favor contemporary to other forms supplanting the forms. The case you note of old hilts being mounted with more modern blades was actually common, as well as vice versa, heirloom blades in newer hilts. While fashion of course prevails popularly, tradition is much stronger and much part of the ethos and honor held by the arme blanche.

27th April 2024, 03:27 AM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,785	Keith, I became interested in the British swords of Hounslow and Shotley about 40 years ago, and while I was able to plow through most of the known published esoterica on these areas of sword making in England, between the 'lore' and huge gaps......overall this was simply a huge mystery. There it remained, and the mention of either of these centers or their history was usually brief or virtually cliche'. While some of the venerable arms sages wrote very informative works on these topics, they could only go so far using established material. Your study on these topics these past years has been UNPARALLELED ! to say the least, and as a native son of Shotley, you have brought this history to the fore, and literally preserved it through your discoveries and remarkably well discerned collection of key examples worthy of any world class museum. I have been wanting to say this publicly for some time, and wanted to thank you, for putting this history into its proper perspective! well done Keith!

30th April 2024, 02:31 PM	#9
Peter Hudson Member Join Date: Jul 2020 Posts: 311	There is an excellent picture of the subject at https://www.npg.org.uk/collections/s.../?mkey=mw06088

1st May 2024, 01:08 AM	#11
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,785	I think as a rule, in accord with the late Nick Norman ("Rapier and Smallsword 1460-1820", 1979) he based his entire work on hilts taken from portraits as in his view portraits of individuals tended to be accurate, including the swords they wore. In other artwork, especially Rembrandt for example, his 'license' was well known. Sets the mind to wondering!