I know my Pappenheims...

shayde78 · 20th March 2020, 04:12 PM

Thanks for the feedback so far, chaps.
I agree that seeing a maker's stamp that didn't correspond to a known stamp gave me pause. There may be another mark on the opposite side of the ricaaso, but because the plate guard is still intact, it is harder to see.

I also realized I didn't post any pictures that provide scale. The tiles on the floor of the next picture are each 12"x12". The picture of the hilt in my hand shows the proportions (at 6'4", my hands are not very small).

Also, one more detail that may help - I thought there were areas of delamination in the bars of the guard. Specifically, those that make up the area surrounding where the missing plate guard would be. Upon closer inspection, I believe this is an intentional groove into which the plate would be secured. See the third picture. Thoughts? Does this correspond to actual period construction practice, or just well constructed recreation?

ulfberth · 20th March 2020, 10:32 PM

Hello , it has one guard plate and the knucklebow missing, but it is one hundred % Original and it is a popular model rapier to, so congratulations !

ulfberth · 20th March 2020, 11:18 PM

its obviously a stabbing blade , can you tell me the total length including the guard , it looks like the blade is a bit short. Despite the name on the ricasso the style and geometry of the blade looks Italian.

shayde78 · 21st March 2020, 12:37 AM

Thanks ulfberth!
The total length is 41.75"
The blade, from point to guard (excluding ricasso) is 34".
I'm also trying to make out the word on the other side of the ricasso. I think I see K E Y, or K E X, but there are more letters I can't yet decipher.

ulfberth · 21st March 2020, 09:03 AM

that means its is missing 6 to 9 inch of its length, can you take a picture of the other letters ?
The name or word is interesting but in this case it could be they were used as a quality label .
The gripwire has also been replaced by cord and it's missing one Turkish knot, still an original pappenheimer rapier an a rare find ! Considering that many of them were restored at some point in time.

fernando · 21st March 2020, 12:51 PM

Excelent inputs Dirk; good to have you around

.

shayde78 · 21st March 2020, 04:24 PM

If it is missing 6-9 inches, how badly would that effect the point of balance? I ask because it currently balance just in front of the guard. Is that where it should be? As a former competitive fencer, it seems to handle very well for such a heavy weapon. To me, that suggests decent balance.
That said, perhaps these were originally more point-heavy and the shortening if the blade inadvertently made the balance more familiar to someone like me.
Another possibility is the weight lost to the hilt by not having the second plate guard would have counter-balanced the additional weight.

All in all, thank you to all those who have shared their thoughts so far. I will keep trying to get a clear picture of the other marks ontheon the ricasso.

Stay healthy, everyone!

shayde78 · 23rd March 2020, 03:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ulfberth

The gripwire has also been replaced by cord and it's missing one Turkish knot, still an original pappenheimer rapier an a rare find !

So, upon taking a closer look, the grip appears to be wrapped, not in cord, but in a woven textile material that has been dipped in something like pitch(?). I'm attaching close-ups where you can clearly see the woven pattern. Is this at all typical of a period replacement?

shayde78 · 23rd March 2020, 03:29 AM

Thanks for all the good information!

I was finally able to get some photos of the markings on the reverse side of the ricasso. Still hard to make out, but I'm uploading several pictures in the hope that someone can piece together what it says.

This is proving an engaging activity while on a state-wide COVID-19 lockdown...thank you for providing some good conversation

shayde78 · 15th April 2020, 03:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shayde78

So, upon taking a closer look, the grip appears to be wrapped, not in cord, but in a woven textile material that has been dipped in something like pitch(?). I'm attaching close-ups where you can clearly see the woven pattern. Is this at all typical of a period replacement?

I hope everyone is staying safe during their COVID lockdown. The question I asked in post #16 seems to have been lost as we moved on to discuss the name on the ricasso. Any insights into this treatment of the grip? I seem to see similar grip covering on other examples from the period and would love to know what it is, and if it might have been part of this weapon's functional life.

21st March 2020, 12:37 AM	#4
shayde78 Member Join Date: Mar 2017 Posts: 443	Thanks ulfberth! The total length is 41.75" The blade, from point to guard (excluding ricasso) is 34". I'm also trying to make out the word on the other side of the ricasso. I think I see K E Y, or K E X, but there are more letters I can't yet decipher. Last edited by shayde78; 21st March 2020 at 03:11 AM.

21st March 2020, 04:24 PM	#7
shayde78 Member Join Date: Mar 2017 Posts: 443	If it is missing 6-9 inches, how badly would that effect the point of balance? I ask because it currently balance just in front of the guard. Is that where it should be? As a former competitive fencer, it seems to handle very well for such a heavy weapon. To me, that suggests decent balance. That said, perhaps these were originally more point-heavy and the shortening if the blade inadvertently made the balance more familiar to someone like me. Another possibility is the weight lost to the hilt by not having the second plate guard would have counter-balanced the additional weight. All in all, thank you to all those who have shared their thoughts so far. I will keep trying to get a clear picture of the other marks ontheon the ricasso. Stay healthy, everyone! Last edited by shayde78; 21st March 2020 at 05:02 PM.

23rd March 2020, 03:29 AM	#9
shayde78 Member Join Date: Mar 2017 Posts: 443	Thanks for all the good information! I was finally able to get some photos of the markings on the reverse side of the ricasso. Still hard to make out, but I'm uploading several pictures in the hope that someone can piece together what it says. This is proving an engaging activity while on a state-wide COVID-19 lockdown...thank you for providing some good conversation Attached Images

20th March 2020, 04:12 PM	#1
shayde78 Member Join Date: Mar 2017 Posts: 443	Thanks for the feedback so far, chaps. I agree that seeing a maker's stamp that didn't correspond to a known stamp gave me pause. There may be another mark on the opposite side of the ricaaso, but because the plate guard is still intact, it is harder to see. I also realized I didn't post any pictures that provide scale. The tiles on the floor of the next picture are each 12"x12". The picture of the hilt in my hand shows the proportions (at 6'4", my hands are not very small). Also, one more detail that may help - I thought there were areas of delamination in the bars of the guard. Specifically, those that make up the area surrounding where the missing plate guard would be. Upon closer inspection, I believe this is an intentional groove into which the plate would be secured. See the third picture. Thoughts? Does this correspond to actual period construction practice, or just well constructed recreation? Attached Images Last edited by shayde78; 20th March 2020 at 05:44 PM.

20th March 2020, 10:32 PM	#2
ulfberth Member Join Date: Jul 2014 Posts: 382	Hello , it has one guard plate and the knucklebow missing, but it is one hundred % Original and it is a popular model rapier to, so congratulations !

20th March 2020, 11:18 PM	#3
ulfberth Member Join Date: Jul 2014 Posts: 382	its obviously a stabbing blade , can you tell me the total length including the guard , it looks like the blade is a bit short. Despite the name on the ricasso the style and geometry of the blade looks Italian.

21st March 2020, 09:03 AM	#5
ulfberth Member Join Date: Jul 2014 Posts: 382	that means its is missing 6 to 9 inch of its length, can you take a picture of the other letters ? The name or word is interesting but in this case it could be they were used as a quality label . The gripwire has also been replaced by cord and it's missing one Turkish knot, still an original pappenheimer rapier an a rare find ! Considering that many of them were restored at some point in time.

21st March 2020, 12:51 PM	#6
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,651	Excelent inputs Dirk; good to have you around .