Austrian hussar sabre for ID

corrado26 · 15th January 2024, 06:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Norman McCormick

Historical European Martial Arts
Regards,
Norman.

Thank you!!

toaster5sqn · 15th January 2024, 06:40 PM

Thank you Jim, but it's still just an idea until someone finds some evidence.

Regarding the wrist guards on Scottish broadswords, fencing manuals from Scotland actually detail various techniques for cutting to the wrist or forearm. This was because disabling the weapon hand was a guaranteed duel win without the risk of being charged with murder for killing your opponent.

Robert

Jim McDougall · 15th January 2024, 07:31 PM

You're right Robert ,
of course the chances of finding documented evidence, as often the case in these kinds of obscure details is pretty slim. The guys writing here have mentioned this type of slashing cut in previous posts, and depending on what sources from which they may have acquired their notations, if not connected might suggest corroboration. Still, at best, we only have reasonable plausibility, but intriguing just the same.

rysays · 15th January 2024, 11:24 PM

What's possibly relevant is this line from Louis Alfred le Blanc de Chatauvillard's "Essai sur le duel" (1836), where notched or chipped swords are expressly forbidden in the duel with epee:

Quote:

"Les lames des épées ne doivent , dans aucun cas , être tranchantes ni ébréchées."

This apparently refers to the practice of intentional sharpening or chipping the blade of an epee to cause illegitimate cuts in disputes that were decided by blood. However, there's no mention of notches in the code for the duel with sabers- only that the combatants must wield swords of the same mount, style, & length. Separate provisions are made for saber duels with or without points, but specific blade prohibitions like with the epee are absent. It's possible that the practice of notching sabers had fallen out of fashion in France by the time of this text & was unknown to the author, or it could be that it was acceptable practice & didn't bear mentioning. There is a requirement for duelists to wear either a glove or a handkerchief to protect the hand, so the advantage of such a notch may have lost its usefulness by this time. Another possibility could lie in Germanic dueling traditions, as the majority of these blades seem to be from regions where the mensur would become popular.

Jim McDougall · 16th January 2024, 06:23 PM

RySays, that cite from 1836 reference with regard to the deliberate notching (barbing?) of epee is most telling.
As I have noted many times over the years, my intrigue with this curious notching of sword blades near the point at back began with Wagner's work in 1967 which showed a number of Austrian blades with such notches.

In over two decades of research, most fencing authorities, museums (including those holding original examples) , military historians etc. had virtually no idea on these 'notches'. It was truly as if nobody had paid any attention to this deliberate and curious feature, and worse, the general attitude 'who cares'? became evident.

It is this 'attitude' which often prevails in historical trivia that piques my antiquarian obsessions, and I simply must at least try to find an answer.
You guys here have far more exposure and experience in European resources as well evidenced in these outstanding and salient entries.

A favorite film of mine, "the Duelists" (1977) directed by Ridley Scott, is to me one of the most superb movies and attention to detail in historical aspects as well as some of the best dueling scenes, and which to me are captivating.
While of course there are many critics who will say otherwise, that is to be expected, however of most fencing authorities I have known and talked with concur with my view in the general accuracy portrayed.

While HEMA is a wonderful study on historic martial arts, some of the fencing masters I have known have certain reservations toward that organization in similar fashion. It is of course a matter of opinion and perspective.

Naturally there are differences in the elements of swordplay when engaged in combat or as seen in the movie,"the Duelists' in a cavalry duel, from those employed in the typical arranged duel. I recall Christoph Amberger years ago when we talked about the 1812 painting "Officer of the Imperial Horse Guards Charging" where he had noted the possible connection of the portrayal with a 'rear guard' action of scheduled sword combat while mounted.
In the mounted duel in the film 'The Duelist' the riders are in position to 'give point' with the sword held high and straight forward.

Basically what I am saying is that, the notching of blades in this manner for the purpose of inflicting distracting wounds, as shown here in the case of dueling, makes perfect sense. As seen in the 1977 film, dueling with regular cavalry sabers was of course practiced in many cases, and the 1908 work "The Duel", by Joseph Conrad, on which the movie is based, the fierce obsession with 'honor' was prevalent in the military much as in the civilian gentry.
It seems profoundly plausible that military officers would have swords so notched, for the instance of such a duel, or to allude to such readiness......and the 'notch' had nothing to do with worsening of wounds in actual combat, nor for the mundane work as a tool for retrieving objects.

Jim McDougall · 17th January 2024, 04:24 AM

In another interesting twist with the notch, from "Lore of Arms" (Reid, 1976), is this hunting sword captioned in line drawing 'of late 17th c'.
The blade is by Corrientes (#24 in Palomares, but working in Madrid, not Toledo as indicated in illustration) with name unusually at back of blade near forte.

The 'notch' is illustrated near the point as in discussed examples.

fernando · 17th January 2024, 11:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

... The blade is by Corrientes (#24 in Palomares, but working in Madrid, not Toledo as indicated in illustration) with name unusually at back of blade near forte...

In Palomares chart it says he also worked in Madrid. As also mentioned by Leguina

.
According to Rodriguez del Canto, Corrientes is said to have already forged short blades for espadines (short swords).

awdaniec666 · 17th January 2024, 03:45 PM

I must say that I´m not convinced regarding the use of those nothces in fencing. This beeing said I´ll observe where this is going.

Jim McDougall · 17th January 2024, 06:32 PM

it does seem in more reading that Toledo activity did continue in degree past 1650, as per the dating of a number of authentic Spanish blades I found in references.

666, no problem with being skeptical on the notches (to create a 'barb' for wounding in dueling, not particularly fencing per se'). I admit being entirely skeptical for these clearly deliberate notches on swords pragmatically suggested for 'picking up items' as the notch is patently insufficient for such.

As for unusual 'tricks' and 'features' in the swordplay employed in dueling, these are of course known and understandable, but not particularly well documented any more than the legendary, 'botte secrete'.
In the 'Spanish fight', la Verdedara Destreza, the primary objective, as I have understood, was to disarm the opponent, or force concession. In most instances it would seem that protection of honor by satisfaction was the goal, and such wounding distractions would provide such release.

I think these are the perspectives to be considered, rather than the dramatic notion of such barbs/notches being intended to worsen wounds in a thrust, which is also as far as I can see, patently unnecessary.

That leaves very little room for a plausible explanation for this mysterious convention which seems to have quite deliberately placed on the blades of a good number of swords in Austria, France, Hungary, Netherlands in the early to mid 18th century, possibly later. In these cases, it would seem the feature was nominally placed in the blades with potential dueling in mind, regardless of such possibility.
With cavalry, especially the hussars, fashion and flamboyant allusion was important, so the notion of a 'dueling' notch on a mans blade......well, you see what I mean?

16th January 2024, 06:23 PM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,785	RySays, that cite from 1836 reference with regard to the deliberate notching (barbing?) of epee is most telling. As I have noted many times over the years, my intrigue with this curious notching of sword blades near the point at back began with Wagner's work in 1967 which showed a number of Austrian blades with such notches. In over two decades of research, most fencing authorities, museums (including those holding original examples) , military historians etc. had virtually no idea on these 'notches'. It was truly as if nobody had paid any attention to this deliberate and curious feature, and worse, the general attitude 'who cares'? became evident. It is this 'attitude' which often prevails in historical trivia that piques my antiquarian obsessions, and I simply must at least try to find an answer. You guys here have far more exposure and experience in European resources as well evidenced in these outstanding and salient entries. A favorite film of mine, "the Duelists" (1977) directed by Ridley Scott, is to me one of the most superb movies and attention to detail in historical aspects as well as some of the best dueling scenes, and which to me are captivating. While of course there are many critics who will say otherwise, that is to be expected, however of most fencing authorities I have known and talked with concur with my view in the general accuracy portrayed. While HEMA is a wonderful study on historic martial arts, some of the fencing masters I have known have certain reservations toward that organization in similar fashion. It is of course a matter of opinion and perspective. Naturally there are differences in the elements of swordplay when engaged in combat or as seen in the movie,"the Duelists' in a cavalry duel, from those employed in the typical arranged duel. I recall Christoph Amberger years ago when we talked about the 1812 painting "Officer of the Imperial Horse Guards Charging" where he had noted the possible connection of the portrayal with a 'rear guard' action of scheduled sword combat while mounted. In the mounted duel in the film 'The Duelist' the riders are in position to 'give point' with the sword held high and straight forward. Basically what I am saying is that, the notching of blades in this manner for the purpose of inflicting distracting wounds, as shown here in the case of dueling, makes perfect sense. As seen in the 1977 film, dueling with regular cavalry sabers was of course practiced in many cases, and the 1908 work "The Duel", by Joseph Conrad, on which the movie is based, the fierce obsession with 'honor' was prevalent in the military much as in the civilian gentry. It seems profoundly plausible that military officers would have swords so notched, for the instance of such a duel, or to allude to such readiness......and the 'notch' had nothing to do with worsening of wounds in actual combat, nor for the mundane work as a tool for retrieving objects. Attached Images Last edited by Jim McDougall; 16th January 2024 at 06:35 PM.

17th January 2024, 04:24 AM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,785	Hunting sword with notch In another interesting twist with the notch, from "Lore of Arms" (Reid, 1976), is this hunting sword captioned in line drawing 'of late 17th c'. The blade is by Corrientes (#24 in Palomares, but working in Madrid, not Toledo as indicated in illustration) with name unusually at back of blade near forte. The 'notch' is illustrated near the point as in discussed examples. Attached Images

15th January 2024, 06:40 PM	#2
toaster5sqn Member Join Date: Jul 2021 Location: New Zealand Posts: 68	Thank you Jim, but it's still just an idea until someone finds some evidence. Regarding the wrist guards on Scottish broadswords, fencing manuals from Scotland actually detail various techniques for cutting to the wrist or forearm. This was because disabling the weapon hand was a guaranteed duel win without the risk of being charged with murder for killing your opponent. Robert

15th January 2024, 07:31 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,785	You're right Robert , of course the chances of finding documented evidence, as often the case in these kinds of obscure details is pretty slim. The guys writing here have mentioned this type of slashing cut in previous posts, and depending on what sources from which they may have acquired their notations, if not connected might suggest corroboration. Still, at best, we only have reasonable plausibility, but intriguing just the same.

17th January 2024, 03:45 PM	#8
awdaniec666 Member Join Date: May 2021 Location: Northern Germany Posts: 144	I must say that I´m not convinced regarding the use of those nothces in fencing. This beeing said I´ll observe where this is going.

17th January 2024, 06:32 PM	#9
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,785	it does seem in more reading that Toledo activity did continue in degree past 1650, as per the dating of a number of authentic Spanish blades I found in references. 666, no problem with being skeptical on the notches (to create a 'barb' for wounding in dueling, not particularly fencing per se'). I admit being entirely skeptical for these clearly deliberate notches on swords pragmatically suggested for 'picking up items' as the notch is patently insufficient for such. As for unusual 'tricks' and 'features' in the swordplay employed in dueling, these are of course known and understandable, but not particularly well documented any more than the legendary, 'botte secrete'. In the 'Spanish fight', la Verdedara Destreza, the primary objective, as I have understood, was to disarm the opponent, or force concession. In most instances it would seem that protection of honor by satisfaction was the goal, and such wounding distractions would provide such release. I think these are the perspectives to be considered, rather than the dramatic notion of such barbs/notches being intended to worsen wounds in a thrust, which is also as far as I can see, patently unnecessary. That leaves very little room for a plausible explanation for this mysterious convention which seems to have quite deliberately placed on the blades of a good number of swords in Austria, France, Hungary, Netherlands in the early to mid 18th century, possibly later. In these cases, it would seem the feature was nominally placed in the blades with potential dueling in mind, regardless of such possibility. With cavalry, especially the hussars, fashion and flamboyant allusion was important, so the notion of a 'dueling' notch on a mans blade......well, you see what I mean?