Elephant swords

fernando · 3rd December 2018, 12:33 PM

You are obvious right, Ariel; my bad

Here is what thy called The battle of Pashan begins ...

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Jens Nordlunde · 3rd December 2018, 12:43 PM

Ariel, about breaking the ivory. Ivory from the African elephant was sought for rather than ivory from the Indian elephant - as it was said to be stronger.

Fernando, nice miniature. I have seen pictures of these 'daggers' as well, but only pictures.

ariel · 3rd December 2018, 02:50 PM

Yes, that is what I was talking about: a single stabbing thingie on each tusk.

African ivory might have been stronger for making sword handles, but regretfully to have stronger ivory of a battle elephant they would have to drag the entire living creature from Africa.
Taking into account that any respectable Indian army had to have 500-800 battle elephants , that would have been a major undertaking:-))))

Jens Nordlunde · 3rd December 2018, 03:46 PM

Ren Ren, thank you for the translation.
I have, in different papers, seen mentioned, that the towers on the elephants had from four to twelve men. If the twelve men is correct it would be a weight of about nine hundred kilo, plus the tower and the armour.
I would suggest that the number of men were less than twelve. First of all they would not have much room for movement, and secondly the weight to carry for the elephant, over many hours, might have been too much - although the elephants are very strong.
Not all the old authors are giving the correct numbers, some of them tend to overdo it a 'bit'.

Ariel, I do see you point. Even to day it would be a wee bit problematic to move maybe 30,000 elephants from Africa to India.

fernando · 3rd December 2018, 05:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

...I have, in different papers, seen mentioned, that the towers on the elephants had from four to twelve men. If the twelve men is correct it would be a weight of about nine hundred kilo, plus the tower and the armour.
I would suggest that the number of men were less than twelve. First of all they would not have much room for movement, and secondly the weight to carry for the elephant, over many hours, might have been too much - although the elephants are very strong.
Not all the old authors are giving the correct numbers, some of them tend to overdo it a 'bit'...

Alvaro Velho speaks of five men, Cristovão da Costa mentions the same number and adds the mahout, Barbosa describes three or four men fitting in the castle, armed with bows, muskets and other weapons and Castanheda, recalling Cambay, also emphasizes the wooden castles, in which go four or five archers and musketeers.
On the other hand in a letter sent by King Dom Manuel to Pope Leão X announcing the conquest of the Melaka, the elephant towers are mentioned and, in a libretto written in Italian, from when the famous obedience embassy to the Pope took place, where an elephant was included as a gift:
le legname grossissimo un castello
e venti homini armati aum trato in quello.
Obviously twenty men is a gross exageration from the King; but Kings can cheat!
And so can the Portuguese anonimous painter in this XVI century watercolour, part of the Casanatense codice.

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Jens Nordlunde · 3rd December 2018, 06:11 PM

Hi Fernando,
:-) there seem to be fifteen men in the 'tower' - the poor elephant - stone tower men and all.

fernando · 3rd December 2018, 06:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Hi Fernando,
:-) there seem to be fifteen men in the 'tower' - the poor elephant - stone tower men and all.

And what a view from the top floor

.
Mind you, this is an early XVI century depiction; there is no other work of the kind from this period.

fernando · 3rd December 2018, 05:11 PM

And the Mughal Empire style; suggesting pointless tusks ...

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ariel · 3rd December 2018, 05:49 PM

Agree.

These two examples introduce a mild doubt in the veracity of Nikitin’s and Velho’s descriptions of elephant swords. But, as I said, stranger things were happening in India.

The use of elephants as war machines might have been devastating to both sides. There are description of many battles in which the defenders conducted massive arrow ( and later firearm) “bombardments” against the elephants thus were turning them around and destroying their own forces. Not till WWI was this problem solved by the introduction of tanks. Although Leonardo left behind blueprints of the first tank-like contraption: a large turtle- like wooden/metal shell with multiple embrasures for several cannons hidden inside.

3rd December 2018, 12:33 PM	#1
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,649	You are obvious right, Ariel; my bad Here is what thy called The battle of Pashan begins ... - Attached Images

3rd December 2018, 05:11 PM	#8
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,649	And the Mughal Empire style; suggesting pointless tusks ... . Attached Images

3rd December 2018, 12:43 PM	#2
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,713	Ariel, about breaking the ivory. Ivory from the African elephant was sought for rather than ivory from the Indian elephant - as it was said to be stronger. Fernando, nice miniature. I have seen pictures of these 'daggers' as well, but only pictures.

3rd December 2018, 02:50 PM	#3
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Yes, that is what I was talking about: a single stabbing thingie on each tusk. African ivory might have been stronger for making sword handles, but regretfully to have stronger ivory of a battle elephant they would have to drag the entire living creature from Africa. Taking into account that any respectable Indian army had to have 500-800 battle elephants , that would have been a major undertaking:-))))

3rd December 2018, 03:46 PM	#4
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,713	Ren Ren, thank you for the translation. I have, in different papers, seen mentioned, that the towers on the elephants had from four to twelve men. If the twelve men is correct it would be a weight of about nine hundred kilo, plus the tower and the armour. I would suggest that the number of men were less than twelve. First of all they would not have much room for movement, and secondly the weight to carry for the elephant, over many hours, might have been too much - although the elephants are very strong. Not all the old authors are giving the correct numbers, some of them tend to overdo it a 'bit'. Ariel, I do see you point. Even to day it would be a wee bit problematic to move maybe 30,000 elephants from Africa to India.

3rd December 2018, 06:11 PM	#6
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,713	Hi Fernando, :-) there seem to be fifteen men in the 'tower' - the poor elephant - stone tower men and all.

3rd December 2018, 05:49 PM	#9
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Agree. These two examples introduce a mild doubt in the veracity of Nikitin’s and Velho’s descriptions of elephant swords. But, as I said, stranger things were happening in India. The use of elephants as war machines might have been devastating to both sides. There are description of many battles in which the defenders conducted massive arrow ( and later firearm) “bombardments” against the elephants thus were turning them around and destroying their own forces. Not till WWI was this problem solved by the introduction of tanks. Although Leonardo left behind blueprints of the first tank-like contraption: a large turtle- like wooden/metal shell with multiple embrasures for several cannons hidden inside.