Strange long rapier

[cel7]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Naturally this example is far from an actual cup hilt rapier, and the date estimated is probably correct. While I would be tempted to consider this as being a theatrical piece, the attempts at detail and the extraordinarily long blade seem atypical for such pieces.

It would be silly to call this a reproduction as it is so far from an actual example that could not have been the intent. The rounded blade tip is of course completely contrary to that of a rapier as these are thrusting weapons.

The stubby quillons are also contrary to cup hilts. The decoration on cup and blade seem approximations of some decoration and motif in degree.

Such as it is, only speculation can estimate the intent of this piece, and as I never wish to denigrate someones weapon, I would optimistically consider the fabrication of traditional weapons sometimes in rural community settings.
Such an instance is with the strange composite assembly of this sword which is likely from Mexican frontier regions sometime in 19th c. using hilt of a cavalry saber, old cut down dragoon blade and briquet hilt.

Thanks Jim for your response! I really looked into rapiers today. Apparently the length is not exceptional and there was a period when this was the standard. Despite that, it remains a strange sword. Here is a link to a good study of various rapiers in museums (pdf). It mainly focuses on the length, weight, balance point, etc. It only describes rapiers made between 1575 and 1615. https://subcaelo.net/ensis/vauthier-..._articleVE.pdf

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by cel7

Thanks Jim for your response! I really looked into rapiers today. Apparently the length is not exceptional and there was a period when this was the standard. Despite that, it remains a strange sword. Here is a link to a good study of various rapiers in museums (pdf). It mainly focuses on the length, weight, balance point, etc. It only describes rapiers made between 1575 and 1615. https://subcaelo.net/ensis/vauthier-..._articleVE.pdf

Absolutely! always up for a mystery.
Actually the blade length is indeed not exceptional , especially with Spanish rapiers, in fact the Spaniards were always ridiculed (cautiously) for their ridiculously long blades and the mysterious fencing techniques. Very interesting and well written study attached.....after 1615 the rapier blade began to give way to heavier arming blades, but hilts remained somewhat similar.
Except the Spanish, who held to their cup hilts and narrow, long blades into the next century.
That is why it is tempting to think of this anomaly as perhaps something Spanish colonial or even in rural regions of Spain.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by cel7

... Here is a link to a good study of various rapiers in museums (pdf). It mainly focuses on the length, weight, balance point, etc. It only describes rapiers made between 1575 and 1615. [url]https://subcaelo.net/ensis/vauthier-rapier/Rapieres_articleVE.pdf[/url

cel7, i wonder whether that pdf article is more based on 'true rapiers' (like the picture shown in it) whereas your sword, so wide as it is (42 mm.) falls more onto the cup hilt 'sword' category... so i realize .
As for 'unusual' lengths, call it neighborhood syndrome, the Portuguese also dealt with such long 'off mark' swords, their blades eventually reaching 132 mm. length, as per known examples.

[cel7]

Originally Posted by fernando

cel7, i wonder whether that pdf article is more based on 'true rapiers' (like the picture shown in it) whereas your sword, so wide as it is (42 mm.) falls more onto the cup hilt 'sword' category... so i realize .
As for 'unusual' lengths, call it neighborhood syndrome, the Portuguese also dealt with such long 'off mark' swords, their blades eventually reaching 132 mm. length, as per known examples.

Thanks for your message Fernando! I also noticed that its very wide compared to the ones described in the PDF.

Could it, as Jim McDougall wondered, be Spanish colonial or even from Spanish rural regions?

[fernando]

Originally Posted by cel7

... Could it, as Jim McDougall wondered, be Spanish colonial or even from Spanish rural regions? ...

Oh, i will leave that to Jim .

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by fernando

Oh, i will leave that to Jim .

As I noted earlier, with these kinds of anomalies, one can only speculate and evaluate with similar examples in being composite assemblies. As an eternal optimist I always try to find viable explanations, as this suggestion of these remote areas and the desire to 'wear a sword' but having sometimes only old parts or broken swords to work with. While many might consider such gestures silly or misguided, we cannot imagine the effort to emulate the traditions in such remote regions by those who manage to live in these conditions.
In the Mexican frontiers, the people were very aware of Spanish heritage, and virtually everything was recycled or made use of, so crude versions of the earlier weapons does not seem unlikely.

I cannot imagine a dealer or collector trying to pass this example off as a true vintage rapier, thus my suggestion.