Use of Actual Vintage Arms as Props in Early Films

mahratt · 16th January 2023, 08:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Thank you Dima! This is fascinating insight, and it is amazing how these important weapons ended up in such unusual circumstances. One never knows what treasures are residing in places nobody would think to look, and often the uninitiated would see a sword as 'just another sword', not realizing.

While I have never really thought a great deal about prop arms in theater and film, I had not realized how many authentic weapons inadvertently ended up in this context. In a recent project where I have been in contact with certain authors and museums I have seen this phenomenon has been much more prevalent in the past than I imagined.
These days there are reproductions, and costume and prop firms who supply studios and theatrical groups, so the 'golden days' are gone, however many of those items from before thankfully have made it to proper care.

From what I know for sure. On the set of the Soviet film "White Sun of the Desert" about the struggle of the Soviet authorities with the Basmachi (by the way, according to a long tradition, Russian cosmonauts always watch this film before flying into space), a lot of authentic arms (mostly Caucasian) were used and, oddly enough, an authentic Japanese army sword was used . This sword is now in my friend's possession. His father received this sword as a gift from the director of the film.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Sun_of_the_Desert

https://yandex.ru/video/preview/4480302271478583828

fernando · 16th January 2023, 11:05 AM

... real props ?

(Courtesy Heritage Auctions)

.

Jim McDougall · 16th January 2023, 07:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mahratt

From what I know for sure. On the set of the Soviet film "White Sun of the Desert" about the struggle of the Soviet authorities with the Basmachi (by the way, according to a long tradition, Russian cosmonauts always watch this film before flying into space), a lot of authentic arms (mostly Caucasian) were used and, oddly enough, an authentic Japanese army sword was used . This sword is now in my friend's possession. His father received this sword as a gift from the director of the film.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Sun_of_the_Desert

https://yandex.ru/video/preview/4480302271478583828

This is great Dima! I have always been intrigued by those M1898 Mauser pistols (in the guys belt), a most curious form gun. I recall in lore that it was said these, which were made in good number in China, as well as Argentina, and were termed 'bandit' guns or to that effect.
The ejection of the shells had something to do with the odd side hold while firing, which thanks to director John Woo, has become popularly used in movies and in accord by modern 'gang bangers'.
Apparently the mauser was held in a side rather than upright aimed position, and in a semi circular 'sweeping' range of rapid fire.

While looking 'bad ass' (?) it seems less than effective in actual firing use, but looks 'threatening' on film, naturally followed by those who are inspired by and try to imitate anything seen in pop culture.

Jim McDougall · 16th January 2023, 08:23 PM

Fernando, this is absolutely BRILLIANT research! Thank you! This is exactly the kind of material I was hoping for.

It appears that if this company, Western Costume Company, which is I believe located in Burbank near the Universal studios attraction and former back lots, was founded in 1912, it was naturally supplying both stage and film venues.

The film noted in this amazing authenticating document was Errol Flynn and Anthony Quinn in "Against All Flags" (1952). I could not find stills of this film with Flynn with anything but wielding a pistol, though I saw one of him holding what is again, a fencing saber. His co star Maureen O'Hara noted that he practiced his fencing meticulously every day.
I watched a segment of the film with him in sword duel with Quinn, and I am certain he was using this sword.

In my original query I was hoping to discover what 'authentic' antique weaponry was used in these 'early' films. In research it is noted that Rudolph Valentino traveled abroad purportedly to acquire props for one of his upcoming films. With his clearly established interest in vintage arms, he most certainly acquired numbers of them in these trips.

In these early days in Los Angeles and of course most major cities, there was an abundance of antiquities available, and heavily appointed interiors with antiques was of course popular at large. One of most enjoyable things in watching 'old' classic films is the fascinating array of antiques always generously adorning the sets.

I am thinking that even with costume and prop suppliers such as this firm, in the early days, the studios and then private film companies augmented their holdings of props etc. with many genuine antiques. These were held in various stores and likely moved together as smaller studios joined larger, and the back lot warehouses were combined. As mentioned earlier, a classic example of literal 'prop warehouse raiding' were the horribly anachronistic "Flash Gordon" series of the 30s.
In these, supposed to be in the 'future' actors were wearing Greek and Roman costumes, using contrived 'ray guns' and swords etc.in a comical combination.

By the 40s and into 50s, it seems there were more light 'stage' weapons being produced (as seen here), while the background may have had extras using these old weapons. The degree and verification remains unclear, but as I have mentioned, it was in the 70s that I was aware of genuine antique arms being obtained from 'movie studio warehouses'.

It will take more research to find evidence of these early instances of actual vintage weapons used in films. In 1935, "Captain Blood" with Flynn, the muskets in use to represent the 'fusil boucanier' (of the buccaneers) appear to be authentic French M1777 Charleville's. As always, it is far more likely to attend to the firearms than any edged weapons at hand.

Jerseyman · 6th February 2023, 10:53 PM

The first time I worked with the Royal Shakespeare Company the armourer brought down a load of 'cutlasses' for me to choose from. I was completely astonished to realise that instead of being theatrical weapons around half of them were cut down French military sabres with St. Etienne inscriptions from the 1870s on their spines.

One of the older drama schools at which I have worked has a handful of British sabres and basket hilts with badly notched blades. Even a mortuary sword which has been very poorly treated considering its age and value. These of course would have been donated in the early 20C and used for Shakespeare productions at the time, with no knowledge of their intrinsic value or history.

In 19C Britain it was very common for people to donate both exotic weapons and British military weapons for local theatre productions, many of which were later consolidated by the formation of the big props-hire houses which bought up props and costumes from regional theatres. Most of those weapons have since been weeded out by people who knew what they were looking at, and have found there way into private collections.

That said, when it comes to firearms the large weapons-hire companies very often use deactivated weapons. I once worked on a show where the hired firearms were all deac AK47s.

At a London arms fair in the late '90s I was chatting to a dealer who worked for a theatrical armourer in the '60s, who described missing out on an odachi being sold out of stock by the company. He said it was about 2.5 metres long and had been painted entirely gold. It had been bought by the company from the D'Oyly Carte Opera Company who had purchased it in the 1880s along with a multitude of other props for the very first production of The Mikado. According to him, the person who beat him to it sent it to Japan to be cleaned and assessed, and apparently it turned out to be a 15C temple sword (? not my area of knowledge) by a famous sword smith, and consequently worth an absolute fortune. Thirty years later he was still kicking himself!

If you're interested in the fighting aspects of the golden age of Hollywood you could check out these books.

Swordsmen of the Screen: from Douglas Fairbanks to Michael York
Richards, J (1977)

Cads and Cavaliers: The Film Adventurers
Thomas, T (1973)

Apart from my interest in a broad range of ethnographic weapons I also collect theatrical weaponry. The irony for me is that these pieces are very often mistaken for real antique weapons and consequently command commensurate prices, and trying to persuade dealers otherwise is very much a losing battle!

Jim McDougall · 7th February 2023, 06:55 PM

This is an absolutely outstanding description of exactly the circumstances I was looking for! THANK YOU SO MUCH! Brilliant!

We often wonder how when so many weapons obviously were produced, many hundreds of thousands, yet many are hard to find, some even deemed 'rare'.
The anecdote on that Japanese sword is quintessant, for these 'diamonds in the rough' found in incredibly austere situations.

I think of the case for the well known Bannerman's island with literally tons of hoarded surplus weapons of every kind. A friend who had worked at movie studios spoke of tons of old weapons into land fills...old gun barrels used as rebar in concrete installations.

Those are excellent books, thank you! and I do have the one by Richards. I did take fencing about a zillion years ago

and much of it included 'stage combat' which was quite elaborate compared to actual fencing.

werecow · 9th February 2023, 09:43 PM

I watched Hight Road to China (1983) the other day and was pleasantly surprised to see that the Afghan's were using actual khyber knives. It was a bit hard to screencap so this was the best shot I could get.

I also once bought a Sikin Panjang and a Co Jang in poor state mostly as fixer uppers (I can use a bit of practice). The lady who sold them told me they had been used in a theater production (unfortunately I never got the name) and that is how they got so banged up. They're sharp, original weapons, and the sikin panjang in particular looks to have been smashed into stuff hard and a lot (it's buckling and bent in multiple places and there is a crack in the blade and some delaminations, and the grip has split), so those actors were dedicated!

Still haven't gotten around to cleaning them and fixing that split grip. If anyone has advice on the repairs (e.g. how to stabilize that blister or what glue works well on horn grips) I am always grateful for your input.

Rick · 11th February 2023, 04:06 AM

Splits in the handles of older Sikkins seem almost ubiquitous.

16th January 2023, 11:05 AM	#2
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,647	Props ... ... real props ? (Courtesy Heritage Auctions) . Attached Images Last edited by fernando; 16th January 2023 at 12:51 PM.

16th January 2023, 08:23 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,785	Fernando, this is absolutely BRILLIANT research! Thank you! This is exactly the kind of material I was hoping for. It appears that if this company, Western Costume Company, which is I believe located in Burbank near the Universal studios attraction and former back lots, was founded in 1912, it was naturally supplying both stage and film venues. The film noted in this amazing authenticating document was Errol Flynn and Anthony Quinn in "Against All Flags" (1952). I could not find stills of this film with Flynn with anything but wielding a pistol, though I saw one of him holding what is again, a fencing saber. His co star Maureen O'Hara noted that he practiced his fencing meticulously every day. I watched a segment of the film with him in sword duel with Quinn, and I am certain he was using this sword. In my original query I was hoping to discover what 'authentic' antique weaponry was used in these 'early' films. In research it is noted that Rudolph Valentino traveled abroad purportedly to acquire props for one of his upcoming films. With his clearly established interest in vintage arms, he most certainly acquired numbers of them in these trips. In these early days in Los Angeles and of course most major cities, there was an abundance of antiquities available, and heavily appointed interiors with antiques was of course popular at large. One of most enjoyable things in watching 'old' classic films is the fascinating array of antiques always generously adorning the sets. I am thinking that even with costume and prop suppliers such as this firm, in the early days, the studios and then private film companies augmented their holdings of props etc. with many genuine antiques. These were held in various stores and likely moved together as smaller studios joined larger, and the back lot warehouses were combined. As mentioned earlier, a classic example of literal 'prop warehouse raiding' were the horribly anachronistic "Flash Gordon" series of the 30s. In these, supposed to be in the 'future' actors were wearing Greek and Roman costumes, using contrived 'ray guns' and swords etc.in a comical combination. By the 40s and into 50s, it seems there were more light 'stage' weapons being produced (as seen here), while the background may have had extras using these old weapons. The degree and verification remains unclear, but as I have mentioned, it was in the 70s that I was aware of genuine antique arms being obtained from 'movie studio warehouses'. It will take more research to find evidence of these early instances of actual vintage weapons used in films. In 1935, "Captain Blood" with Flynn, the muskets in use to represent the 'fusil boucanier' (of the buccaneers) appear to be authentic French M1777 Charleville's. As always, it is far more likely to attend to the firearms than any edged weapons at hand. Attached Images

9th February 2023, 09:43 PM	#7
werecow Member Join Date: Sep 2021 Location: Leiden, NL Posts: 435	I watched Hight Road to China (1983) the other day and was pleasantly surprised to see that the Afghan's were using actual khyber knives. It was a bit hard to screencap so this was the best shot I could get. I also once bought a Sikin Panjang and a Co Jang in poor state mostly as fixer uppers (I can use a bit of practice). The lady who sold them told me they had been used in a theater production (unfortunately I never got the name) and that is how they got so banged up. They're sharp, original weapons, and the sikin panjang in particular looks to have been smashed into stuff hard and a lot (it's buckling and bent in multiple places and there is a crack in the blade and some delaminations, and the grip has split), so those actors were dedicated! Still haven't gotten around to cleaning them and fixing that split grip. If anyone has advice on the repairs (e.g. how to stabilize that blister or what glue works well on horn grips) I am always grateful for your input. Attached Images

6th February 2023, 10:53 PM	#5
Jerseyman Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 97	The first time I worked with the Royal Shakespeare Company the armourer brought down a load of 'cutlasses' for me to choose from. I was completely astonished to realise that instead of being theatrical weapons around half of them were cut down French military sabres with St. Etienne inscriptions from the 1870s on their spines. One of the older drama schools at which I have worked has a handful of British sabres and basket hilts with badly notched blades. Even a mortuary sword which has been very poorly treated considering its age and value. These of course would have been donated in the early 20C and used for Shakespeare productions at the time, with no knowledge of their intrinsic value or history. In 19C Britain it was very common for people to donate both exotic weapons and British military weapons for local theatre productions, many of which were later consolidated by the formation of the big props-hire houses which bought up props and costumes from regional theatres. Most of those weapons have since been weeded out by people who knew what they were looking at, and have found there way into private collections. That said, when it comes to firearms the large weapons-hire companies very often use deactivated weapons. I once worked on a show where the hired firearms were all deac AK47s. At a London arms fair in the late '90s I was chatting to a dealer who worked for a theatrical armourer in the '60s, who described missing out on an odachi being sold out of stock by the company. He said it was about 2.5 metres long and had been painted entirely gold. It had been bought by the company from the D'Oyly Carte Opera Company who had purchased it in the 1880s along with a multitude of other props for the very first production of The Mikado. According to him, the person who beat him to it sent it to Japan to be cleaned and assessed, and apparently it turned out to be a 15C temple sword (? not my area of knowledge) by a famous sword smith, and consequently worth an absolute fortune. Thirty years later he was still kicking himself! If you're interested in the fighting aspects of the golden age of Hollywood you could check out these books. Swordsmen of the Screen: from Douglas Fairbanks to Michael York Richards, J (1977) Cads and Cavaliers: The Film Adventurers Thomas, T (1973) Apart from my interest in a broad range of ethnographic weapons I also collect theatrical weaponry. The irony for me is that these pieces are very often mistaken for real antique weapons and consequently command commensurate prices, and trying to persuade dealers otherwise is very much a losing battle!

7th February 2023, 06:55 PM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,785	This is an absolutely outstanding description of exactly the circumstances I was looking for! THANK YOU SO MUCH! Brilliant! We often wonder how when so many weapons obviously were produced, many hundreds of thousands, yet many are hard to find, some even deemed 'rare'. The anecdote on that Japanese sword is quintessant, for these 'diamonds in the rough' found in incredibly austere situations. I think of the case for the well known Bannerman's island with literally tons of hoarded surplus weapons of every kind. A friend who had worked at movie studios spoke of tons of old weapons into land fills...old gun barrels used as rebar in concrete installations. Those are excellent books, thank you! and I do have the one by Richards. I did take fencing about a zillion years ago and much of it included 'stage combat' which was quite elaborate compared to actual fencing.

11th February 2023, 04:06 AM	#8
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,268	Splits in the handles of older Sikkins seem almost ubiquitous.