Interesting Toradar Barrel

archer · 10th February 2018, 03:43 AM

Hi Roland I'll have to give the Chalk trick a try I'm always wrist deep in rust.
Thomas if only I could copy those portions dealing with this technique
he implies that the multi faggot designs and others were constructed separately ground or filed square and added to other billets to make up
a pattern going one way the next one in the opposite direction and joined with others to perhaps plain billets . The chevron swords come to mind. I think that time and high skill were certainly needed. I don't know how common these designs are and I'm hoping to get a feel for that. I'm fairly certain this type of construction unlike wootz could be treated a bit more harshly and continue to reveal itself.

Stenyab, your rifle is a great example of the use it had and the pristine
bright finish it still carries hidden beneath its stock. When I first got this barrel I had lofty hopes of mocking it up in a new stock and hardware now I await a nearly complete unit with some broken stock missing.
It was cheap and i find that shipping from UK to Alaska will add three times to the cost. hopefully it may a shooter?? Definitely a project.

Kai at different times cleaning and etching I too see a some of the pattern as it was laid up Just now or suns smack on the horizon bad for filming. the zig-zag pattern must have been made up of several segments and is harder to read. Now that I feel more confident of the pattern depths I'm tempted to gently try a rotating buffing wheel very carefully I can already see a clearer pattern where i cleaned the forward barrel portion more aggressively removing more dark spots and making for a clearer pattern.
Kia your right there were other steps omitted,but, the nearly cut thru slices were left together. Dr. Figiel also mentions possible molten cast iron baths used in the process. Steve

Pukka Bundook · 10th February 2018, 06:33 AM

You are doing a very nice job on it Steve.

Can I ask what you use to etch it? I have a couple to do, but mine appear to be just a simple twist.
Staggeringly beautiful barrel you have! I Shake my head when I think how they were made!

Richard.

archer · 10th February 2018, 07:09 AM

Hi Richard,
I use Ferric Chloride from EBay it comes in various forms see photos. I use a spray Acetone used to remove foam insulation Cleans thoroughly and dries fast. I mix the crystals with distilled water. A weaker mixture is normally preferred. This time it was stronger and applied several times. Downside of the repeated strong applications is gets too dark requiring light sanding under running water or a mild abrasive to change the tone. Important prep and degrease til there is no pooling acid mixture should cover and stay wet. Strip off with an Ammonia at this point you can use acetone and continue etch or dry rinse with water or baking soda and water and dry. Note after light water and1000 grit both the various metals and spirals are evident. I don't think the barrel was ever etched in a past life so hopefully the contrast will come out.

Pukka Bundook · 10th February 2018, 02:15 PM

Thanks for that, Steve.

I do have some ferric chloride somewhere. will give it a bash as and when!

The toradar I have for shooting has no chamber per se. it has a slightly smaller diameter to the bore for the last inch maybe, so is easy to load.

The others have a powder chamber, and without the narrower "neck" still hold about 265 grains of powder. (!)If the narrow neck area was Also filled with powder, it would be a serious amount to fire.
Maybe this is why they could out-range the British musket of the time?...both for distance and accuracy.
I have never come across any details of How these guns were charged;
If you find any information, I would be appreciative if you would pass it along.

Best regards,
Richard.

archer · 10th February 2018, 04:28 PM

Hi Richard

I think your chamber without restriction could be a boon or a boom.generally the feeling now is pack everything tight air spaces raise pressures. Someone here recently stated that with the old powders the extra air for burning gave these bores their advantage. I wonder if something like kapok might allow for needed reduction and allow modern Peridox to be used would the filler burn off or just melt into goo. There is a U Tube where they explained that dried dung and or dirt was dumped into chamber before the ball was seated.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DTfEDaWMj4o

I wonder how the Japanese and Portuguese loaded theirs. I'd love to shoot one. Steve

Pukka Bundook · 10th February 2018, 08:46 PM

Steve, When I replied above, your pictures after etching did not show for some reason. That is Beautiful work!!!

Now I had not though about dung or dirt as a filler! At least with my "chamberless " one I don't have to worry about germ warfare. :-)

I do recall reading, I think in Elgood, that these took longer to load because of the chambers, but it does not go on to say why....or How they were loaded. I will look at your link, and thank you for that!

R

Edited to add S**t works! LOL!

Steve,

Yesterday I tried out a terrible old toraor that I'd been working on. Had to fine-bore the barrel as it was very rough.
It is Very lightly stocked and had parts missing.
Anyway, after the usual safety test, I loaded it as they did in the video, with dried cow manure as wadding, and it went off like greased lightning! Accuracy -wise wasn't brilliant, as it seems to be shooting "off" a bit. May need the barrel straightening a bit
This one has a constricted chamber, so the wadding was required, but it Does work......also the barrel remained dry and less greasy than with normal wadding...

archer · 12th February 2018, 02:42 AM

Hey Richard so S**T Happens to be the answer. Wow who knew!! Editing was why you hadn't seen photos on previous post, an afterthought to insure you or others will know a rinse that works. Too funny, sometimes we just have to do it the old way. I've been catching up on your old posts your doing great restoring these guns. The one I bought in England is waiting to see if i can add to the 3 gun limit i'll be paying for, anyway I thought the stock was broken may not be after seeing your posts. You have definitely made my day. Jump in if you see something at auction. Steve

Roland_M · 14th February 2018, 03:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by archer

I don't think the barrel was ever etched in a past life so hopefully the contrast will come out.

This barrel was 100% etched in the past. It is made from pattern welded steel and the only purpose of the pattern is to be beautiful. I have different etchants receipies from the past, but they all sound very toxic, with quicksilver and so on. If you are interested, I have a pdf about pattern welded Barrel restoration for you. The fine thing is, the guide is from early 19th ct. and describes the old way to stain a barrel.

Roland

Pukka Bundook · 14th February 2018, 04:02 PM

Roland,

I can not answer for Steve, but would like to say that etching and browning are separate proceedures.
I know you know this already, but sometimes it can get confused.
A browned barrel can show the figure perfectly, as the iron/steel absorbs the acid in a different manner, to show the beauty of the pattern.
An etched barrel can also be browned , and still shows the beauty of the pattern as well, but the difference is that an etched barrel will also show "Undulations" , or light contouring of the surface as in the above barrel.
(Steel and iron eaten away at differing rates.)

This contouring will not show on a merely browned barrel, ...only the pattern.

This was just to clarify.

Kindest regards,
Richard.

Roland_M · 14th February 2018, 04:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pukka Bundook

Roland,

I can not answer for Steve, but would like to say that etching and browning are separate proceedures.
I know you know this already, but sometimes it can get confused.
A browned barrel can show the figure perfectly, as the iron/steel absorbs the acid in a different manner, to show the beauty of the pattern.
An etched barrel can also be browned , and still shows the beauty of the pattern as well, but the difference is that an etched barrel will also show "Undulations" , or light contouring of the surface as in the above barrel.
(Steel and iron eaten away at differing rates.)

This contouring will not show on a merely browned barrel, ...only the pattern.

This was just to clarify.

Kindest regards,
Richard.

Hello Richard,

thank you very much for your explanation. In Germany we know no difference between etching and staining. I learned this difference from Mr. Alan Maisey. Yes I understand the difference since a few months.
I wrote etching because in the book "Oriental arms and armour" Lord Eggerton says Indian barrels are etched until there is a relief in the surface and he describes pretty detailed how they did that. The book: On Damascus Steel" from Dr. Figiel shows exactly the same type of pattern welded barrel on page 138 and 139 and this barrel is relief etched (at least I`m sure about that). But the patternd welded swords seem to be stained not etched. I guess a relief etching is more durable on barrels, which become hot from shooting and often oiled.

Please correct me, if I write something wrong. This is the only and best way to learn more!

Best wishes and thank you again for your explanation,
Roland

archer · 14th February 2018, 07:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roland_M

This barrel was 100% etched in the past. It is made from pattern welded steel and the only purpose of the pattern is to be beautiful. I have different etchants receipies from the past, but they all sound very toxic, with quicksilver and so on. If you are interested, I have a pdf about pattern welded Barrel restoration for you. The fine thing is, the guide is from early 19th ct. and describes the old way to stain a barrel.

Roland

Hello Roland,
I sent you an Email thru Forum and would enjoy any information you might be able to provide. I'm currently using more prolonged Etching to get the barrel etched evenly where time and mild repeated cleanings have made it more shallow. The barrel is showing a sort of sideways W pattern and some of the joints where sections were forged together. Yes we all will benefit from more knowledge. A photo from Figiel Zig Zag Pattern. Thank you, Steve

Pukka Bundook · 15th February 2018, 02:02 PM

Roland,

You know more about this than I do, and cannot think I could add anything to what you describe above.
I did not know if all Indian barrels were etched, as I have a couple that are very smooth and uniform, and show no pattern either.

I should try an etch on a hidden area.
It appears I need more books! :-)

Steve,

That barrel is becoming very vibrant!

Roland_M · 15th February 2018, 02:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pukka Bundook

Roland,

You know more about this than I do, and cannot think I could add anything to what you describe above.
I did not know if all Indian barrels were etched, as I have a couple that are very smooth and uniform, and show no pattern either.

I should try an etch on a hidden area.
It appears I need more books! :-)

Steve,

That barrel is becoming very vibrant!

Hello Steve,

Her is the link to the "DamascusRestorationandRefinish.pdf" for you and add the link here in the thread. The results look very professional.

https://www.datafilehost.com/d/48547375

And another one about Barrel strength.

https://www.datafilehost.com/d/1b05bc93

If you try an etch on a hidden area, I would suggest a salt instead of acid, because it is less destructive. A mild solution of Iron(III) chloride (I dont like it but others got very good results with it) or Sodiumpersulfate (~10 grams on 100 millilitre distilled warm water (40-50°C), barrel should be warmed up with hot water from the water-tab). This is easy to remove without traces and brings out every tiny detail of the pattern. You can ask Sajen,in case you dont trust me.

Btw. it is hard to see from pictures but British barrels or European pattern welded barrels in generell seems to have no relief etching, only a staining.

It would be really interesting, to find out the true reason why Indian pattern welded barrels are deep etched? It could also simply be just a question of fashion.

More books are always good but I afraid, you will not learn more about restoration. What you need is a good validated guide. I hope "DamascusRestorationandRefinish" will help you, this guide has been done by pros.

Kind regards,
Roland

10th February 2018, 03:43 AM	#1
archer Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 373	responses Hi Roland I'll have to give the Chalk trick a try I'm always wrist deep in rust. Thomas if only I could copy those portions dealing with this technique he implies that the multi faggot designs and others were constructed separately ground or filed square and added to other billets to make up a pattern going one way the next one in the opposite direction and joined with others to perhaps plain billets . The chevron swords come to mind. I think that time and high skill were certainly needed. I don't know how common these designs are and I'm hoping to get a feel for that. I'm fairly certain this type of construction unlike wootz could be treated a bit more harshly and continue to reveal itself. Stenyab, your rifle is a great example of the use it had and the pristine bright finish it still carries hidden beneath its stock. When I first got this barrel I had lofty hopes of mocking it up in a new stock and hardware now I await a nearly complete unit with some broken stock missing. It was cheap and i find that shipping from UK to Alaska will add three times to the cost. hopefully it may a shooter?? Definitely a project. Kai at different times cleaning and etching I too see a some of the pattern as it was laid up Just now or suns smack on the horizon bad for filming. the zig-zag pattern must have been made up of several segments and is harder to read. Now that I feel more confident of the pattern depths I'm tempted to gently try a rotating buffing wheel very carefully I can already see a clearer pattern where i cleaned the forward barrel portion more aggressively removing more dark spots and making for a clearer pattern. Kia your right there were other steps omitted,but, the nearly cut thru slices were left together. Dr. Figiel also mentions possible molten cast iron baths used in the process. Steve Last edited by archer; 10th February 2018 at 06:51 AM.

10th February 2018, 07:09 AM	#3
archer Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 373	Etchant Hi Richard, I use Ferric Chloride from EBay it comes in various forms see photos. I use a spray Acetone used to remove foam insulation Cleans thoroughly and dries fast. I mix the crystals with distilled water. A weaker mixture is normally preferred. This time it was stronger and applied several times. Downside of the repeated strong applications is gets too dark requiring light sanding under running water or a mild abrasive to change the tone. Important prep and degrease til there is no pooling acid mixture should cover and stay wet. Strip off with an Ammonia at this point you can use acetone and continue etch or dry rinse with water or baking soda and water and dry. Note after light water and1000 grit both the various metals and spirals are evident. I don't think the barrel was ever etched in a past life so hopefully the contrast will come out. Attached Images Last edited by archer; 10th February 2018 at 04:09 PM.

10th February 2018, 04:28 PM	#5
archer Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 373	Chambers Hi Richard I think your chamber without restriction could be a boon or a boom.generally the feeling now is pack everything tight air spaces raise pressures. Someone here recently stated that with the old powders the extra air for burning gave these bores their advantage. I wonder if something like kapok might allow for needed reduction and allow modern Peridox to be used would the filler burn off or just melt into goo. There is a U Tube where they explained that dried dung and or dirt was dumped into chamber before the ball was seated. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DTfEDaWMj4o I wonder how the Japanese and Portuguese loaded theirs. I'd love to shoot one. Steve

10th February 2018, 08:46 PM	#6
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	Steve, When I replied above, your pictures after etching did not show for some reason. That is Beautiful work!!! Now I had not though about dung or dirt as a filler! At least with my "chamberless " one I don't have to worry about germ warfare. :-) I do recall reading, I think in Elgood, that these took longer to load because of the chambers, but it does not go on to say why....or How they were loaded. I will look at your link, and thank you for that! R Edited to add S*t works! LOL! Steve, Yesterday I tried out a terrible old toraor that I'd been working on. Had to fine-bore the barrel as it was very rough. It is Very lightly stocked and had parts missing. Anyway, after the usual safety test, I loaded it as they did in the video, with dried cow manure as wadding, and it went off like greased lightning! Accuracy -wise wasn't brilliant, as it seems to be shooting "off" a bit. May need the barrel straightening a bit This one has a constricted chamber, so the wadding was required, but it Does work......also the barrel remained dry and less greasy than with normal wadding... Last edited by Pukka Bundook; 11th February 2018 at 02:44 PM.*

12th February 2018, 02:42 AM	#7
archer Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 373	wadding Hey Richard so S**T Happens to be the answer. Wow who knew!! Editing was why you hadn't seen photos on previous post, an afterthought to insure you or others will know a rinse that works. Too funny, sometimes we just have to do it the old way. I've been catching up on your old posts your doing great restoring these guns. The one I bought in England is waiting to see if i can add to the 3 gun limit i'll be paying for, anyway I thought the stock was broken may not be after seeing your posts. You have definitely made my day. Jump in if you see something at auction. Steve Attached Images

10th February 2018, 06:33 AM	#2
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	You are doing a very nice job on it Steve. Can I ask what you use to etch it? I have a couple to do, but mine appear to be just a simple twist. Staggeringly beautiful barrel you have! I Shake my head when I think how they were made! Richard.

10th February 2018, 02:15 PM	#4
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	Thanks for that, Steve. I do have some ferric chloride somewhere. will give it a bash as and when! The toradar I have for shooting has no chamber per se. it has a slightly smaller diameter to the bore for the last inch maybe, so is easy to load. The others have a powder chamber, and without the narrower "neck" still hold about 265 grains of powder. (!)If the narrow neck area was Also filled with powder, it would be a serious amount to fire. Maybe this is why they could out-range the British musket of the time?...both for distance and accuracy. I have never come across any details of How these guns were charged; If you find any information, I would be appreciative if you would pass it along. Best regards, Richard.

14th February 2018, 04:02 PM	#9
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	Roland, I can not answer for Steve, but would like to say that etching and browning are separate proceedures. I know you know this already, but sometimes it can get confused. A browned barrel can show the figure perfectly, as the iron/steel absorbs the acid in a different manner, to show the beauty of the pattern. An etched barrel can also be browned , and still shows the beauty of the pattern as well, but the difference is that an etched barrel will also show "Undulations" , or light contouring of the surface as in the above barrel. (Steel and iron eaten away at differing rates.) This contouring will not show on a merely browned barrel, ...only the pattern. This was just to clarify. Kindest regards, Richard.

15th February 2018, 02:02 PM	#12
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	Roland, You know more about this than I do, and cannot think I could add anything to what you describe above. I did not know if all Indian barrels were etched, as I have a couple that are very smooth and uniform, and show no pattern either. I should try an etch on a hidden area. It appears I need more books! :-) Steve, That barrel is becoming very vibrant!