Keris with „sickleshape-blade“ for comments

David · 4th November 2019, 07:59 PM

Well, my own personal viewpoint on whether or not this should be considered a keris should carry little weight in the community at large, but i see this much more as a keris than i do a jambiyo. I mean, everything else that one would expect from a keris is there except for the curvature of the blade. At the same time, certainly the curvature alone cannot qualify a blade as a jambiyo any more than a wavy luk blade can qualify a blade as a keris without the other recognized elements that make up a keris.
The blade looks genuinely old and the curve looks intentional and original to me. Certainly this is out of pakem, and i do realize that for some any keris dhapur that is outside of pakem is not a true keris. But i would happily accept this particular example into my family of keris and would consider it one, albeit a strange bird in the flock.

A. G. Maisey · 4th November 2019, 11:46 PM

Possibly the question of whether something is a keris or is not a keris is a question of perspective. For some people it might be a matter of compliance with one or another pakem, for others it might be a matter compliance with certain spiritual or esoteric factors.

David · 5th November 2019, 06:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Possibly the question of whether something is a keris or is not a keris is a question of perspective. For some people it might be a matter of compliance with one or another pakem, for others it might be a matter compliance with certain spiritual or esoteric factors.

Fully agree.

Jean · 5th November 2019, 06:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Well, my own personal viewpoint on whether or not this should be considered a keris should carry little weight in the community at large, but i see this much more as a keris than i do a jambiyo. I mean, everything else that one would expect from a keris is there except for the curvature of the blade. At the same time, certainly the curvature alone cannot qualify a blade as a jambiyo any more than a wavy luk blade can qualify a blade as a keris without the other recognized elements that make up a keris.
The blade looks genuinely old and the curve looks intentional and original to me. Certainly this is out of pakem, and i do realize that for some any keris dhapur that is outside of pakem is not a true keris. But i would happily accept this particular example into my family of keris and would consider it one, albeit a strange bird in the flock.

David,
Being also a collector of jambiyas and khanjars from the Middle-East, I fully concur with your opinion although I would accept that this kris has a "dapur jambiya"

Regards

David · 6th November 2019, 02:22 AM

I can see that Jean.

A. G. Maisey · 6th November 2019, 07:54 AM

I think I'm going to disagree with this "dhapur keris" idea.

A dhapur is set down in a pakem.

A pakem is a guide that has been established by some sort of authority, usually a kraton, and that pakem sets down the ricikan for the particular dhapur.

Just because a keris has a blade shape that is curved like a jambiyo blade does not mean that it can be called "Dhapur Jambiyo".

Until we can find a pakem that sets forth the requirements for a keris to be named as "Dhapur Jambiyo" I feel that it would be wise to refer to this particular object in a different way than by using the word "dhapur".

My personal take on it is that we have jambiyo-like keris, or a keris-like jambiyo.

Until an agreeable pakem surfaces we do not have a Keris of Dhapur Jambiyo.

We simply do not have the required authority to hand out dhapurs as it suits us.

In my post #13 I mentioned esoteric and spiritual reasons for regarding something as a legitimate keris. Clearly that measure cannot apply in this case.

Henk · 6th November 2019, 02:49 PM

I agree with Alan. I do remember that the collector who showed me such a keris called it a bent keris and a rarity. He certainly didn't refered to a dapur.

JBG163 · 6th November 2019, 05:55 PM

From a javanese friend :

"dhapur Kuku bima"

A. G. Maisey · 6th November 2019, 07:45 PM

I would most gently suggest that "Dhapur Kuku Bima" is an invention of the trade, or of Indonesian collectors from the modern era. I very much doubt that this dhapur will be found in any legitimate pakem.

thomas hauschild · 6th November 2019, 07:55 PM

Have the piece now in my hand. Some close ups from the blade.

Best Thomas

6th November 2019, 07:55 PM	#10
thomas hauschild Member Join Date: May 2017 Location: Germany Posts: 139	Have the piece now in my hand. Some close ups from the blade. Best Thomas Attached Images

4th November 2019, 07:59 PM	#1
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,047	Well, my own personal viewpoint on whether or not this should be considered a keris should carry little weight in the community at large, but i see this much more as a keris than i do a jambiyo. I mean, everything else that one would expect from a keris is there except for the curvature of the blade. At the same time, certainly the curvature alone cannot qualify a blade as a jambiyo any more than a wavy luk blade can qualify a blade as a keris without the other recognized elements that make up a keris. The blade looks genuinely old and the curve looks intentional and original to me. Certainly this is out of pakem, and i do realize that for some any keris dhapur that is outside of pakem is not a true keris. But i would happily accept this particular example into my family of keris and would consider it one, albeit a strange bird in the flock. Last edited by David; 5th November 2019 at 03:36 AM.

4th November 2019, 11:46 PM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,741	Possibly the question of whether something is a keris or is not a keris is a question of perspective. For some people it might be a matter of compliance with one or another pakem, for others it might be a matter compliance with certain spiritual or esoteric factors.

6th November 2019, 02:22 AM	#5
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,047	I can see that Jean.

6th November 2019, 07:54 AM	#6
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,741	I think I'm going to disagree with this "dhapur keris" idea. A dhapur is set down in a pakem. A pakem is a guide that has been established by some sort of authority, usually a kraton, and that pakem sets down the ricikan for the particular dhapur. Just because a keris has a blade shape that is curved like a jambiyo blade does not mean that it can be called "Dhapur Jambiyo". Until we can find a pakem that sets forth the requirements for a keris to be named as "Dhapur Jambiyo" I feel that it would be wise to refer to this particular object in a different way than by using the word "dhapur". My personal take on it is that we have jambiyo-like keris, or a keris-like jambiyo. Until an agreeable pakem surfaces we do not have a Keris of Dhapur Jambiyo. We simply do not have the required authority to hand out dhapurs as it suits us. In my post #13 I mentioned esoteric and spiritual reasons for regarding something as a legitimate keris. Clearly that measure cannot apply in this case.

6th November 2019, 02:49 PM	#7
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	I agree with Alan. I do remember that the collector who showed me such a keris called it a bent keris and a rarity. He certainly didn't refered to a dapur.

6th November 2019, 05:55 PM	#8
JBG163 Member Join Date: Sep 2019 Location: France Posts: 203	From a javanese friend : "dhapur Kuku bima"

6th November 2019, 07:45 PM	#9
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,741	I would most gently suggest that "Dhapur Kuku Bima" is an invention of the trade, or of Indonesian collectors from the modern era. I very much doubt that this dhapur will be found in any legitimate pakem.