Revolutionary War era clasp knife

Rick · 2nd March 2024, 05:31 AM

The first folding knives date to the Iron Age 500 or 600 BCE approximately.
The spike on these knives would probably only be useful for breaking knots in twine or the blade for cutting a plug of tobacco.
Certainly, more than one was brought back from the Far East by sailors and used in a different way than originally intended. Many of these had the body that held the stylus and knife made from Ivory, thus making them even more desirable to own.

Wikipedia has a large section on the use of these tools.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palm-leaf_manuscript

M ELEY · 2nd March 2024, 11:05 PM

Thank you, Rick, for this excellent info and I also forgot to thank you for the positive ID on this one. I'm not feeling as bad about it now. Lesson learned and I think this is at least an old one.

Jim McDougall · 3rd March 2024, 05:16 PM

In ongoing research on this intriguing old knife/stylus, there are certain inherent qualities that render it having maritime possibility, despite not being an item specifically for such context. The mere fact that these were clearly diffused through SE Asia, Malaysia and East Indies of course suggests they were indeed aboard trade vessels through these networks.

Aboard ships, especially pirate and privateer vessels with their own autonomy rather than stenrict regulation, the clever eye of the sailor, regardless of what flag he sailed under, was keen and innovative. These would likely have been seen as a 'novelty', and primarily as a folding knife alone......however the stylus, in essence a spike, while having utilitarian measure......would be deadly if used as a close quarters weapon. Not as much in combat, as in stealth, a stab in key location would be mortal. Naturally, these kinds of matters would escape any sort of record as the typical chroniclers of this history would not usually have such information.

Carl Sagan once observed, it is not so much the study of written history that needs attention, but that of 'unwritten' history, where many answers and secrets are to be found. This is perhaps badly paraphrased, but it is the idea I took from it.

M ELEY · 4th March 2024, 05:49 PM

Hello Jim and thank you for your valuable perspective. I'm feeling a lot less 'bummed out' about it now. Many of the items in my collection range from odd ethnographic pieces to New World colonial, bearing in mind that such items indeed were a part of the maritime world of trading, piracy and exotic 'goods'. I'll definitely do more research, though, the next time I decide to step out of my comfort zone (big edgy things) to buy something different (little folding edgy things

)

Jim McDougall · 29th April 2024, 08:00 PM

It seems funny that in the 'maritime' world these knives, remarkably of the exact same configuration with blade and awl are indeed called sailors knives.
The awl is apparently referred to as a 'marlin' spike (clearly for the big game fish) and similar have appeared as pre-Civil War from notable collections with blacksmith forged iron parts.

These same type knives are still being produced, for some reason nicknamed the '1757'.

Is it not possible that such knives aboard vessels might have been seen by these Chettiars (accountants with palm leaf pages) in trade ports, and adopted the form as convenient. Most scribes seem to have been in static locations, so why would a folding stylus be required, unless they were in transit and keeping records?

Attached is the 'pre Civil war' sailors knife from Walt Hallstein collection that was auctioned some time ago. It was noted as having blacksmith forged iron parts.

urbanspaceman · 30th April 2024, 06:41 PM

Hey Jim, I have to tell you about the Marlin Spike:
first the fish was named after the tool and not vice-versa.
Second, Marlin is a contraction of Marling.
Marling is the term for rope work, as rope was made from Marl.
Obviously a mandatory tool shipboard.
On a similar note, I recently sold a WW2 German SAK handled trench knife (see pic) that featured a canvas and leather stitching tool which I found curious as I've not seen examples of soldiers repairing such materials, but then I've led a sheltered life.
The other feature was a cork screw: convivial imbibing round the night fire perhaps.

Jim McDougall · 30th April 2024, 08:34 PM

Keith, thank you so much! You're truly a fountain of knowledge...I had no idea on the name of the Marlin fish!Its fascinating how terms and their etymology have so much history.

So far my efforts to connect this knife and its form to 'Jack tars' is tenuous, as it seems the stylus used by the Chettiars (palm leaf accountants) was known as 'narayam'. These apparently were not only in the fixed type stylus but were known in this folding form(the term 'Swiss' Army knife is used) so they must have been in use independently from the maritime use I supposed.

Still, the nautical 'marlin' knives still used today with awl suggest obviously their use. While the spike seems very small for heavy work on canvas, it might serve in other matters with rigging and rope beyond my limited awareness of such things.

Whatever the case, this does stand as a Tamil scribes stylus, and by the metal etc it seems end of 18th into 19th c.....Anandalal, based in Sri Lanka, identified one identical to this as such a number of years ago.

Thank you again for helping with this quandry, an usual item, clearly not often seen, at least as far as Ive seen.

Best regards,
Jim

Sajen · 8th May 2024, 08:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Attached is the 'pre Civil war' sailors knife from Walt Hallstein collection that was auctioned some time ago. It was noted as having blacksmith forged iron parts.

Hi Jim,

The knife you showed is also a lontar scribe's knife.

Attached a pic of my small collection of these knives.
Never believe descriptions auction houses provide!
Regards,
Detlef

Jim McDougall · 8th May 2024, 10:37 PM

well spoken Detlef!
Thank you for showing these. What exactly is a lontar scribe? I know that scribes using these stylus' were widely spread throughout SE Asia, but am not familiar with the many ethnic groups.

The one shown in the OP, with fluted grip, can you say more on the style. While it reminds me of neoclassic European style, you would be more familiar with the period and perhaps regional classification of this particular style.

Do you think it is feasible that sailors might have obtained these as earlier suggested and used them as awls?

The OP example seems c. 1790s by the pitted blades IMO, and the general feel of it when handled.

4th March 2024, 05:49 PM	#4
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,076	Hello Jim and thank you for your valuable perspective. I'm feeling a lot less 'bummed out' about it now. Many of the items in my collection range from odd ethnographic pieces to New World colonial, bearing in mind that such items indeed were a part of the maritime world of trading, piracy and exotic 'goods'. I'll definitely do more research, though, the next time I decide to step out of my comfort zone (big edgy things) to buy something different (little folding edgy things)

29th April 2024, 08:00 PM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,778	It seems funny that in the 'maritime' world these knives, remarkably of the exact same configuration with blade and awl are indeed called sailors knives. The awl is apparently referred to as a 'marlin' spike (clearly for the big game fish) and similar have appeared as pre-Civil War from notable collections with blacksmith forged iron parts. These same type knives are still being produced, for some reason nicknamed the '1757'. Is it not possible that such knives aboard vessels might have been seen by these Chettiars (accountants with palm leaf pages) in trade ports, and adopted the form as convenient. Most scribes seem to have been in static locations, so why would a folding stylus be required, unless they were in transit and keeping records? Attached is the 'pre Civil war' sailors knife from Walt Hallstein collection that was auctioned some time ago. It was noted as having blacksmith forged iron parts. Attached Images

30th April 2024, 06:41 PM	#6
urbanspaceman Member Join Date: Sep 2017 Location: Tyneside. North-East England Posts: 517	A bit fishy Hey Jim, I have to tell you about the Marlin Spike: first the fish was named after the tool and not vice-versa. Second, Marlin is a contraction of Marling. Marling is the term for rope work, as rope was made from Marl. Obviously a mandatory tool shipboard. On a similar note, I recently sold a WW2 German SAK handled trench knife (see pic) that featured a canvas and leather stitching tool which I found curious as I've not seen examples of soldiers repairing such materials, but then I've led a sheltered life. The other feature was a cork screw: convivial imbibing round the night fire perhaps. Attached Images

2nd March 2024, 05:31 AM	#1
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,265	The first folding knives date to the Iron Age 500 or 600 BCE approximately. The spike on these knives would probably only be useful for breaking knots in twine or the blade for cutting a plug of tobacco. Certainly, more than one was brought back from the Far East by sailors and used in a different way than originally intended. Many of these had the body that held the stylus and knife made from Ivory, thus making them even more desirable to own. Wikipedia has a large section on the use of these tools. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palm-leaf_manuscript

2nd March 2024, 11:05 PM	#2
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,076	Thank you, Rick, for this excellent info and I also forgot to thank you for the positive ID on this one. I'm not feeling as bad about it now. Lesson learned and I think this is at least an old one.

3rd March 2024, 05:16 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,778	In ongoing research on this intriguing old knife/stylus, there are certain inherent qualities that render it having maritime possibility, despite not being an item specifically for such context. The mere fact that these were clearly diffused through SE Asia, Malaysia and East Indies of course suggests they were indeed aboard trade vessels through these networks. Aboard ships, especially pirate and privateer vessels with their own autonomy rather than stenrict regulation, the clever eye of the sailor, regardless of what flag he sailed under, was keen and innovative. These would likely have been seen as a 'novelty', and primarily as a folding knife alone......however the stylus, in essence a spike, while having utilitarian measure......would be deadly if used as a close quarters weapon. Not as much in combat, as in stealth, a stab in key location would be mortal. Naturally, these kinds of matters would escape any sort of record as the typical chroniclers of this history would not usually have such information. Carl Sagan once observed, it is not so much the study of written history that needs attention, but that of 'unwritten' history, where many answers and secrets are to be found. This is perhaps badly paraphrased, but it is the idea I took from it.

30th April 2024, 08:34 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,778	Keith, thank you so much! You're truly a fountain of knowledge...I had no idea on the name of the Marlin fish!Its fascinating how terms and their etymology have so much history. So far my efforts to connect this knife and its form to 'Jack tars' is tenuous, as it seems the stylus used by the Chettiars (palm leaf accountants) was known as 'narayam'. These apparently were not only in the fixed type stylus but were known in this folding form(the term 'Swiss' Army knife is used) so they must have been in use independently from the maritime use I supposed. Still, the nautical 'marlin' knives still used today with awl suggest obviously their use. While the spike seems very small for heavy work on canvas, it might serve in other matters with rigging and rope beyond my limited awareness of such things. Whatever the case, this does stand as a Tamil scribes stylus, and by the metal etc it seems end of 18th into 19th c.....Anandalal, based in Sri Lanka, identified one identical to this as such a number of years ago. Thank you again for helping with this quandry, an usual item, clearly not often seen, at least as far as Ive seen. Best regards, Jim

8th May 2024, 10:37 PM	#9
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,778	well spoken Detlef! Thank you for showing these. What exactly is a lontar scribe? I know that scribes using these stylus' were widely spread throughout SE Asia, but am not familiar with the many ethnic groups. The one shown in the OP, with fluted grip, can you say more on the style. While it reminds me of neoclassic European style, you would be more familiar with the period and perhaps regional classification of this particular style. Do you think it is feasible that sailors might have obtained these as earlier suggested and used them as awls? The OP example seems c. 1790s by the pitted blades IMO, and the general feel of it when handled.