Hmong Knife

kronckew · 22nd August 2020, 08:11 AM

I've been told the Hmong (aka 'Montanyards') actually buy these too for themselves, some come with aluminium guards. They do not like them & remove the guards. Not sure if mine are Al yet.

Back story: with photo examples for battara

Himalayan imports has a 'Cantina' section for open discussion of just about anything legal and non-porn. One member is Vietnamese, about 20 years ago he saw a hmong knife from a village chief, but couldn't buy it, so he himself made one just like it. He posted it in the Cantina. It was so well liked HI was cajoled into making a few that were much like it. I saw it there and put it on my bucket list. Being human, in the decades that followed it has mutated and now comes in a khukuri type scabbard, the blade now has a cylindrical grip with brass bands and is not nearly as pointy as it started out. The original HI is the one in the horn scabbard below. The thai enep is ubiquitous in the SEA area, It's the thai version of a khukuri and comes in many sizes. Used in the kitchen, garden, hunting, self defence.

I've got 2, the one with a basket scabbard below is smaller than the one in the wood scabbard. Those two are also wickedly sharp.

kronckew · 22nd August 2020, 08:51 AM

...and the current HI mutation, the Hmong Friendship knife. Don't care for this version.

Battara · 22nd August 2020, 09:33 PM

So what I gather is that the Hmong knife forms shown are not indigenous?

Ian · 23rd August 2020, 01:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battara

... the Hmong knife forms shown are not indigenous?

That's mostly correct Jose. After talking with several Hmong informants in Minneapolis, they tell me that Hmong knives are basic work knives that were adapted for other purposes. Most resemble the Thai enap knives with a wide belly (similar to the middle and bottom knives Wayne has posted in #4 of this topic), while others are more influenced by Chinese shapes such as the "river pirate" knives (somewhat similar to the top knife Wayne has posted in #4 of this topic). They come in various sizes. Wide-mouthed rectangular wooden scabbards are the norm. Their swords are long handled, similar to those of other Montagnard tribal groups and probably based on earlier Lao forms. My SEA swords and knives are not easily accessible at the moment but when I have more time I'll post some typical Hmong examples.

Sajen · 23rd August 2020, 10:29 AM

Here are two Hmong knives from my collection.

kronckew · 5th September 2020, 03:08 PM

Pair of knives finally arrived. I love 'em. 126 grams inc. scabbard, knife on its own is 91 grams. Length 28 cm. overall, 18 cm. x 2.5 cm. blade, 5*mm. thick at guard, distal tapering down to a very pointy point, very sharp too. Grips appear to be a very dense dark wood. Scabbards are the same wood. Guards are a silver coloured non-ferrous metal that doesn't look like aluminium, no whitish oxide on it, just a splotchy brownish patination. All tight and ship shape. One unusual thing, they each have a latching hook of flat sheet samrit or brass that swivels on a small steel screw that can latch over a small protrusion on the right side of the guard to retain the knife in the scabbard. The yellow metal bands on the grip and scabbard appear to be samrit, held in place with mall steel tacks.

Jim McDougall · 5th September 2020, 06:10 PM

While this topic is admittedly outside my fields of study, it is fascinating and I did at one time enter into some research. With familiarity with the Viet Nam war in recollections of that time in service ('65) the awareness of this SE Asian country became profound in the next decade of course. What most do not realize is that there was a great deal of activity there prior to first combat troops deployed there in '65 after the 'Tonkin' matter.

Montagnard is of course a collective term used to describe about 30 tribes in mountainous or hill regions of Viet Nam, Laos and Cambodia. The Hmong were but one of these tribes. These people had been working with the French in various allied actions hence the French term. As US forces began to enter Viet Nam in late 50s, early 60s as advisors to South Vietnamese forces, the Montagnard again became important guerilla fighters allied to them.

These people were not considered integral to other Vietnamese people as they were tribal and mostly remote and rurally situated, and linguistically they spoke thier own dialects. They were often called 'moi' (=savages) by the Vietnamese population, in the manner of pejoratives such as 'hillbiilly' etc.

I recall getting a dha years ago, which was most interesting and set me on research into this apparently Viet Nam 'bring back' from 60s. Though not having access at the moment to notes etc. I remember working with a professor of ethnology in Calif. who had done extensive research and written a book on the Hmong and several of these tribes. I sent her photos of the dha, and she took them to a council of tribal elders who immediately recognized the dha as 'one of thier own' and gave some explanation of some of the markings. I think one said, the sword will return to its owner, or to that effect. What was key was that the markings had deeper meaning that simply aesthetic.

I spoke also with an Army officer who was well known and decorated, and who had been among advisors in Viet Nam in '62. He too recognized the dha in form etc.

The professor and her tribal contacts if I recall identified the dha to a tribe and village region in Laos.

Though all of this is of course anecdotal, I just wanted to add what I could about the Montagnards, and how many of these weapons ended up being bring backs from Viet Nam. Rather than trophies they were probably symbolically presented to our military in the alliance shared. As the war ended finally in '75, a small number of Montagnards were brought to the US, mostly North Carolina, however I know numbers of them were in Calif.
The rest, sadly were left to their own as Viet Nam was ended.

I will add any material I can find to augment this once available.

22nd August 2020, 08:11 AM	#1
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,152	I've been told the Hmong (aka 'Montanyards') actually buy these too for themselves, some come with aluminium guards. They do not like them & remove the guards. Not sure if mine are Al yet. Back story: with photo examples for battara Himalayan imports has a 'Cantina' section for open discussion of just about anything legal and non-porn. One member is Vietnamese, about 20 years ago he saw a hmong knife from a village chief, but couldn't buy it, so he himself made one just like it. He posted it in the Cantina. It was so well liked HI was cajoled into making a few that were much like it. I saw it there and put it on my bucket list. Being human, in the decades that followed it has mutated and now comes in a khukuri type scabbard, the blade now has a cylindrical grip with brass bands and is not nearly as pointy as it started out. The original HI is the one in the horn scabbard below. The thai enep is ubiquitous in the SEA area, It's the thai version of a khukuri and comes in many sizes. Used in the kitchen, garden, hunting, self defence. I've got 2, the one with a basket scabbard below is smaller than the one in the wood scabbard. Those two are also wickedly sharp. Attached Images Last edited by kronckew; 22nd August 2020 at 09:05 AM.

22nd August 2020, 08:51 AM	#2
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,152	...and the current HI mutation, the Hmong Friendship knife. Don't care for this version. Attached Images Last edited by kronckew; 22nd August 2020 at 09:05 AM.

23rd August 2020, 10:29 AM	#5
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,571	Here are two Hmong knives from my collection. Attached Images

22nd August 2020, 09:33 PM	#3
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,141	So what I gather is that the Hmong knife forms shown are not indigenous?

5th September 2020, 03:08 PM	#6
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,152	Pair of knives finally arrived. I love 'em. 126 grams inc. scabbard, knife on its own is 91 grams. Length 28 cm. overall, 18 cm. x 2.5 cm. blade, 5*mm. thick at guard, distal tapering down to a very pointy point, very sharp too. Grips appear to be a very dense dark wood. Scabbards are the same wood. Guards are a silver coloured non-ferrous metal that doesn't look like aluminium, no whitish oxide on it, just a splotchy brownish patination. All tight and ship shape. One unusual thing, they each have a latching hook of flat sheet samrit or brass that swivels on a small steel screw that can latch over a small protrusion on the right side of the guard to retain the knife in the scabbard. The yellow metal bands on the grip and scabbard appear to be samrit, held in place with mall steel tacks.

5th September 2020, 06:10 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,785	While this topic is admittedly outside my fields of study, it is fascinating and I did at one time enter into some research. With familiarity with the Viet Nam war in recollections of that time in service ('65) the awareness of this SE Asian country became profound in the next decade of course. What most do not realize is that there was a great deal of activity there prior to first combat troops deployed there in '65 after the 'Tonkin' matter. Montagnard is of course a collective term used to describe about 30 tribes in mountainous or hill regions of Viet Nam, Laos and Cambodia. The Hmong were but one of these tribes. These people had been working with the French in various allied actions hence the French term. As US forces began to enter Viet Nam in late 50s, early 60s as advisors to South Vietnamese forces, the Montagnard again became important guerilla fighters allied to them. These people were not considered integral to other Vietnamese people as they were tribal and mostly remote and rurally situated, and linguistically they spoke thier own dialects. They were often called 'moi' (=savages) by the Vietnamese population, in the manner of pejoratives such as 'hillbiilly' etc. I recall getting a dha years ago, which was most interesting and set me on research into this apparently Viet Nam 'bring back' from 60s. Though not having access at the moment to notes etc. I remember working with a professor of ethnology in Calif. who had done extensive research and written a book on the Hmong and several of these tribes. I sent her photos of the dha, and she took them to a council of tribal elders who immediately recognized the dha as 'one of thier own' and gave some explanation of some of the markings. I think one said, the sword will return to its owner, or to that effect. What was key was that the markings had deeper meaning that simply aesthetic. I spoke also with an Army officer who was well known and decorated, and who had been among advisors in Viet Nam in '62. He too recognized the dha in form etc. The professor and her tribal contacts if I recall identified the dha to a tribe and village region in Laos. Though all of this is of course anecdotal, I just wanted to add what I could about the Montagnards, and how many of these weapons ended up being bring backs from Viet Nam. Rather than trophies they were probably symbolically presented to our military in the alliance shared. As the war ended finally in '75, a small number of Montagnards were brought to the US, mostly North Carolina, however I know numbers of them were in Calif. The rest, sadly were left to their own as Viet Nam was ended. I will add any material I can find to augment this once available.