Revolutionary War era clasp knife

[Jim McDougall]

It seems funny that in the 'maritime' world these knives, remarkably of the exact same configuration with blade and awl are indeed called sailors knives.
The awl is apparently referred to as a 'marlin' spike (clearly for the big game fish) and similar have appeared as pre-Civil War from notable collections with blacksmith forged iron parts.

These same type knives are still being produced, for some reason nicknamed the '1757'.

Is it not possible that such knives aboard vessels might have been seen by these Chettiars (accountants with palm leaf pages) in trade ports, and adopted the form as convenient. Most scribes seem to have been in static locations, so why would a folding stylus be required, unless they were in transit and keeping records?

Attached is the 'pre Civil war' sailors knife from Walt Hallstein collection that was auctioned some time ago. It was noted as having blacksmith forged iron parts.

[urbanspaceman]

Hey Jim, I have to tell you about the Marlin Spike:
first the fish was named after the tool and not vice-versa.
Second, Marlin is a contraction of Marling.
Marling is the term for rope work, as rope was made from Marl.
Obviously a mandatory tool shipboard.
On a similar note, I recently sold a WW2 German SAK handled trench knife (see pic) that featured a canvas and leather stitching tool which I found curious as I've not seen examples of soldiers repairing such materials, but then I've led a sheltered life.
The other feature was a cork screw: convivial imbibing round the night fire perhaps.

[Jim McDougall]

Keith, thank you so much! You're truly a fountain of knowledge...I had no idea on the name of the Marlin fish!Its fascinating how terms and their etymology have so much history.

So far my efforts to connect this knife and its form to 'Jack tars' is tenuous, as it seems the stylus used by the Chettiars (palm leaf accountants) was known as 'narayam'. These apparently were not only in the fixed type stylus but were known in this folding form(the term 'Swiss' Army knife is used) so they must have been in use independently from the maritime use I supposed.

Still, the nautical 'marlin' knives still used today with awl suggest obviously their use. While the spike seems very small for heavy work on canvas, it might serve in other matters with rigging and rope beyond my limited awareness of such things.

Whatever the case, this does stand as a Tamil scribes stylus, and by the metal etc it seems end of 18th into 19th c.....Anandalal, based in Sri Lanka, identified one identical to this as such a number of years ago.

Thank you again for helping with this quandry, an usual item, clearly not often seen, at least as far as Ive seen.

Best regards,
Jim

[Radboud]

Jim, the spike is used to untie knots. As you will appreciate, knots are placed under a lot of tension on boats (or swell from water when natural materials are used). So there are times when extra leverage is needed to undo them. Inserting the marlin spike inbetween the strands allows you to wriggle the knot loose enough to untie it.

Another use is when you are splicing ropes to work the individual strands apart. These spikes have a lot of utility on boats where so much was held together by rope and canvas.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Radboud

Jim, the spike is used to untie knots. As you will appreciate, knots are placed under a lot of tension on boats (or swell from water when natural materials are used). So there are times when extra leverage is needed to undo them. Inserting the marlin spike inbetween the strands allows you to wriggle the knot loose enough to untie it.

Another use is when you are splicing ropes to work the individual strands apart. These spikes have a lot of utility on boats where so much was held together by rope and canvas.

That makes sense, kinda like me with my shoelaces!! auughh! the dynamics of tension and water also cause issues. Thank you!

[M ELEY]

Sorry I hadn't commented on this thread for a while. I've been on 'stormy seas' lately- The marlin spike used to untie knots is, of course, a fact and indeed I think these stylus types could have seen sea service. Much as fids were used for very thick rope, I feel the small spikes could have been effective with smaller lines and also would have been a great tool for punching holes in sailcloth or other fabrics, etching scrimshaw, etc.

[Jim McDougall]

Great to see ya Capn, and indeed there are stormy seas about!

In closely examining this 'narayam' (stylus) made in the manner of a folding knife, which appears to be of course notably efficient in the case of portability, it seems clear this example is of late 18th century. These were typically associated with the 'Chettiars', which was an occupational caste in India dealing primarily in book keeping which included money changing and lending, and were primarily situated in Tamil Nadu.

Scribes keeping records of course had done so since ancient times using dried palm leaves as 'paper' and in these cases of course Sanskrit was the lingua francia, and often these knives had letters in this script on the blades.
The Chettiars were noted as locating in other areas which seem to correspond to many areas in the Orient including Rangoon, Singapore and many others.

While the use of palm leaves as paper waned in the 19th century with the use of printing presses as colonization brought such modern methods into use, tradition as always was a dominant force, so continued following of this practice likely held true especially in certain regions.

As trade vessels quite literally plied these corners of the 'seven seas', it seems not only likely, but probable, that these folding knife stylus' (or awl in nautical parlance) would have been seen by sailors dealing with them....whether in legitimate trade, or of course, 'visited' by pirates.

Multi-purposing was always very much an element of necessity at sea, as well as in native environments in colonial situations, so a stylus/knife finding alternative use aboard vessels would not be at all surprising.
That this example, which is virtually identical to one shown some years ago here by a former writer here (Anandalal of Sri Lanka) its character is profoundly neo-classic European supporting the late 19th century date suggested. ..but possibly into early 19th.

The fluted grips and neo classical capstan feature recall the hilts of European small swords, which again, would not be surprising in this era in these regions with the strong infusions of European influence.

As with all edged weapons, even small knives such as this, in its capacity more as a tool, there are many intriguing tales they hold.

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Attached is the 'pre Civil war' sailors knife from Walt Hallstein collection that was auctioned some time ago. It was noted as having blacksmith forged iron parts.

Hi Jim,

The knife you showed is also a lontar scribe's knife.
Attached a pic of my small collection of these knives.
Never believe descriptions auction houses provide!
Regards,
Detlef

[Jim McDougall]

well spoken Detlef!
Thank you for showing these. What exactly is a lontar scribe? I know that scribes using these stylus' were widely spread throughout SE Asia, but am not familiar with the many ethnic groups.

The one shown in the OP, with fluted grip, can you say more on the style. While it reminds me of neoclassic European style, you would be more familiar with the period and perhaps regional classification of this particular style.

Do you think it is feasible that sailors might have obtained these as earlier suggested and used them as awls?

The OP example seems c. 1790s by the pitted blades IMO, and the general feel of it when handled.

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

well spoken Detlef!
Thank you for showing these. What exactly is a lontar scribe? I know that scribes using these stylus' were widely spread throughout SE Asia, but am not familiar with the many ethnic groups.

The one shown in the OP, with fluted grip, can you say more on the style. While it reminds me of neoclassic European style, you would be more familiar with the period and perhaps regional classification of this particular style.

Do you think it is feasible that sailors might have obtained these as earlier suggested and used them as awls?

The OP example seems c. 1790s by the pitted blades IMO, and the general feel of it when handled.

Hi Jim,

Lontar is a palm. The lontar palm leaves are used to write on them, the scribes write or better scribe the text with the needle and rub a plant ash inside.The term I used was "lontar scribe's knife". But hit me, I can't tell from my memories of how the knife was used but when my old brain works well to cut the leaves. All the knives here shown (not only mine) come from India, maybe Sri Lanka, so far I know.
When you look close, you will see that my black wood ones are fluted as well. I guess for better grip!?
And yes, I guess that they can be fairly old. I know not too much about them, I assembled them when I saw them and when they were not too expensive.

Regards,
Detlef

[Sajen]

Look here for better understanding: https://www.alamy.de/fotos-bilder/lo...ortBy=relevant