Cut steel decorations on Indian arms

Jens Nordlunde · 11th November 2019, 03:34 PM

Its a very nice bazuband.
I have often wondered how they, with the primitive tools they had, were able to make these steel cuttings.

For those of you who like riddles. Have a look at the pata I showed. There are a lot of peacocks at the edge of the gauntlet. If you dont see them, look for how the peacocks were shown in the 16th to 17th century.

Silver John · 17th November 2019, 04:09 PM

Encouraged by Jens on a separate thread, I have decided to post the only Indian piece I own with cut steel decoration.

A modest tulwar, sadly missing the pommel disc. The blade is a decent size; 77cm long and the piece weighs 670grams, but the handle is absolutely tiny, with only 7cm of room for the hand.

I would be very interested in any comments.

Jens Nordlunde · 17th November 2019, 04:40 PM

Silver John, thank you very much for posting:-).

Is the hilt silver plated - or was it?
Its interesting to think of, how much this hilt have been used to be worn like it is. A grip of the size of 7 cm does not surprise me, as I think most grips are about this size. The missing disc is interesting, but have relatively often been seen.
Intersting blade, which could be European, or maybe an Indian copy, as these stamps were copied a lot in India.

kronckew · 17th November 2019, 05:32 PM

We see the removed disks quite often, I suspect they get removed deliberately by owners who either have larger hands or prefer a more western sabre cutting style.

ariel · 17th November 2019, 06:14 PM

That was Tirri’s idea.
Yes, from time to time we do see Tulwars with no pommel disk. But we see many, many more with semi-attached wobbly disks, some even with signs of attempted brazing. There is no way to exclude deliberate removal of disks from time to time, but IMHO in the majority of cases it was an unintended loss due to forging defect/poor craftsmanship.

Kubur · 17th November 2019, 08:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

IMHO in the majority of cases it was an unintended loss due to forging defect/poor craftsmanship.

Yes I agree... they were badly smelted.
Disks are important to keep the sword well in hand.
or disks were removed as demilitarized equipment - in short to not beeing used...against British or others...

"A grip of the size of 7 cm does not surprise m"

As Jens wrote it's common and it's very handy as your hand is really stuck between the guard and the disk...might have been useful in a battle...

Jens Nordlunde · 17th November 2019, 09:14 PM

Yes Ariel is right, that was Tirri's theory - and so far we dont know if it is correct.

Kubur, the thing about the handle was not from me, but from Krochew #52.

Anyway, missing disc or not, lets have a look at the tulwar.
The hilt is very vorn, and the blade seems to be quite old as well - so how old would you think it is?
To be save, I would say early 18th century, but it could be older. Bids are open :-).

Silver John · 18th November 2019, 05:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Is the hilt silver plated - or was it?

It’s hard to tell, the entire handle was a rusty brown when I bought it. I have rubbed it down with 000 wire wool as mineral oil which has revealed a few tiny flecks of gold at the edge of one of the motiefs, but no obvious silver yet. I still have some cleaning to do, so I might find some yet.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Its interesting to think of, how much this hilt have been used to be worn like it is.

Indeed! And I photographed the “good” side, the other is far more worn. It’s almost impossible to see in the picture, but the same pattern that is near the cross guard is also on the palm swell of the handle, just much more faint. An arrangement of flowers in rows, 1,2,3,2.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Intersting blade, which could be European, or maybe an Indian copy, as these stamps were copied a lot in India.

I had wondered about that. The blade has Indian features like the stepped spine and large ricasso. I had hoped to reveal a pattern in the blade by etching it, but my initial test panel did not reveal anything at all. Perhaps it is European and so no pattern is to be found?, or perhaps I just need to use a different acid for etching.

Many thanks for the comments!

Nihl · 20th November 2019, 04:33 AM

Just to add to the examples in this thread, here are three pieces I have with cut steel decoration; a pata and bara jamdadu, both from the 17th century, and an early 19th century pata. All of them have floral/vegetal decoration of some sort, though the 19th c pata is quite an exception as it has both a zoomorphic "face" as well as a makara on either side of the gauntlet. The bara jamdadu also probably has a stylized pair of peacocks on it somewhere

kronckew · 20th November 2019, 09:09 AM

cut Steel hilts were popular on court/mourning swords early 19c too, I wonder if they aquired a teaste for it from the Indian portion of the Empire...

Jens Nordlunde · 21st November 2019, 12:00 PM

Nihl, it is very nice steel cut decora tions on your patas.

Hindus and Muslims both used floral decoration, but not for the same reason.
To the Muslims it was pure decoration, but to the Hindus it was often a representation of a diety.

Kronckew, yes the Europeans also used steel cut decoration, but I dont think they used it as much as the Indians.

11th November 2019, 03:34 PM	#1
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Its a very nice bazuband. I have often wondered how they, with the primitive tools they had, were able to make these steel cuttings. For those of you who like riddles. Have a look at the pata I showed. There are a lot of peacocks at the edge of the gauntlet. If you dont see them, look for how the peacocks were shown in the 16th to 17th century. Last edited by Jens Nordlunde; 11th November 2019 at 04:07 PM.

17th November 2019, 04:09 PM	#2
Silver John Member Join Date: Aug 2013 Posts: 31	Encouraged by Jens on a separate thread, I have decided to post the only Indian piece I own with cut steel decoration. A modest tulwar, sadly missing the pommel disc. The blade is a decent size; 77cm long and the piece weighs 670grams, but the handle is absolutely tiny, with only 7cm of room for the hand. I would be very interested in any comments. Attached Images

20th November 2019, 04:33 AM	#9
Nihl Member Join Date: Feb 2018 Posts: 90	Just to add to the examples in this thread, here are three pieces I have with cut steel decoration; a pata and bara jamdadu, both from the 17th century, and an early 19th century pata. All of them have floral/vegetal decoration of some sort, though the 19th c pata is quite an exception as it has both a zoomorphic "face" as well as a makara on either side of the gauntlet. The bara jamdadu also probably has a stylized pair of peacocks on it somewhere Attached Images

20th November 2019, 09:09 AM	#10
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,230	cut Steel hilts were popular on court/mourning swords early 19c too, I wonder if they aquired a teaste for it from the Indian portion of the Empire... Attached Images

17th November 2019, 04:40 PM	#3
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Silver John, thank you very much for posting:-). Is the hilt silver plated - or was it? Its interesting to think of, how much this hilt have been used to be worn like it is. A grip of the size of 7 cm does not surprise me, as I think most grips are about this size. The missing disc is interesting, but have relatively often been seen. Intersting blade, which could be European, or maybe an Indian copy, as these stamps were copied a lot in India.

17th November 2019, 05:32 PM	#4
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,230	We see the removed disks quite often, I suspect they get removed deliberately by owners who either have larger hands or prefer a more western sabre cutting style.

17th November 2019, 06:14 PM	#5
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	That was Tirri’s idea. Yes, from time to time we do see Tulwars with no pommel disk. But we see many, many more with semi-attached wobbly disks, some even with signs of attempted brazing. There is no way to exclude deliberate removal of disks from time to time, but IMHO in the majority of cases it was an unintended loss due to forging defect/poor craftsmanship. Last edited by ariel; 17th November 2019 at 06:26 PM.

17th November 2019, 09:14 PM	#7
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Yes Ariel is right, that was Tirri's theory - and so far we dont know if it is correct. Kubur, the thing about the handle was not from me, but from Krochew #52. Anyway, missing disc or not, lets have a look at the tulwar. The hilt is very vorn, and the blade seems to be quite old as well - so how old would you think it is? To be save, I would say early 18th century, but it could be older. Bids are open :-).

21st November 2019, 12:00 PM	#11
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Nihl, it is very nice steel cut decora tions on your patas. Hindus and Muslims both used floral decoration, but not for the same reason. To the Muslims it was pure decoration, but to the Hindus it was often a representation of a diety. Kronckew, yes the Europeans also used steel cut decoration, but I dont think they used it as much as the Indians.