Ottoman/Albanian Khanjar scabbard markings

[DavidFriedman]

Thank you. Any idea which Sultans Tugrah this might be, to show its age?

I’m not sure why they are designated as Albanian. Is it because this type of grip was more in Vogue up there perhaps?

Originally Posted by OsobistGB

About identification...I am curious what is the reason why this type of daggers are designated as Albanian?
About the marking...The first is the sultan's tugrah is placed on silver objects certifying paid taxes to the treasury.The rest are the master's stamp

[Interested Party]

I would love to see the blade! to see what type of construction Albanians preferred.

[kronckew]

The hilt shape looks rather Kurdish...

[Interested Party]

Originally Posted by kronckew

The hilt shape looks rather Kurdish...

Not arguing your point, but I have seen other hilts in this style labeled Balkan or Albanian. If someone could explain the fine differences in the hilts that would be enlightening and amazing

Thanks for any help,
IP

[OsobistGB]

Originally Posted by DavidFriedman

Thank you. Any idea which Sultans Tugrah this might be, to show its age?

I’m not sure why they are designated as Albanian. Is it because this type of grip was more in Vogue up there perhaps?

The possibilities are two, maximum three Mahmud II or Abdul Hamid II. It is highly unlikely to be Selim III.

[mariusgmioc]

I believe the designation of these daggers as Albanian or Balkan is completely wrong!

The turgha stamp on this one points towards a TURKISH origin, and not Albanian.
Moreover the style of these daggers has nothing to do with Albanian traditional motifs.
Last, but not least, Albania had no tradition in producing weapons and there are no known historical examples of this type of "albanian daggers" or anything similar BEFORE the Turkish Ottoman occupation.

So, I am convinced this is a TURKISH hançer, either made in Turkey (most certainly because of the Turgha punch mark) or made somewhere else in the Ottoman empire by a Turkish swordsmith.

I have seen many other types of swords, daggers, or even yataghans atributed to Greece, Albania, Bosnia or generally "the Balkans" that are typically Turkish. I believe this to be a major error that continues to be propagated and amplified through anecdotal means.

Even Elgood in his book "The Arms of Greece and Her Balkan Neighbors in the Ottoman Period" presents many typical Turkish weapons as being Greek or from the Balkans simply based on anecdotal evidence. Namely because the owner of the blade said so... Completely unscientific, unprofessional and misleading!

So, is a yataghan that was made by a Turkish swordsmith that moved along with the Turkish army and was stationed in Greece, Greek?! Or can we say that the yataghans produced by him are Greek?!

Because this is exactly what happened in most cases. The massive Ottoman army was accompanied by many Turkish swordsmiths when it conquered and occupied Greece and the Balkans. And these Turkish swordsmiths established some production centers in these occupied regions and continued to supply weapons to the Ottoman army stationed there.

While there are some, very few, typical Ottoman weapons like yataghans or kilijes that have clear stylistic particularities that allow them to be confidently attributed to Greece or the Balkans, the majority are not, and should be considered as Turkish, if there are no clearly distinguishable features that distinguishes them from the ones made in "mainland Turkey."

[TVV]

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

Because this is exactly what happened in most cases. The massive Ottoman army was accompanied by many Turkish swordsmiths when it conquered and occupied Greece and the Balkans. And these Turkish swordsmiths established some production centers in these occupied regions and continued to supply weapons to the Ottoman army stationed there.

It is amazing how the Eastern Roman Empire, the First and Second Bulgarian Empires and the Serbian Empire accomplished what they did over a period of close to a millennium fighting with sticks and stones and a few imported weapons or trophies, since they obviously had no arms and armor craftsmen. Good thing the Ottoman brought blacksmithing to the Constantinople and the Balkans...

[mariusgmioc]

Originally Posted by TVV

It is amazing how the Eastern Roman Empire, the First and Second Bulgarian Empires and the Serbian Empire accomplished what they did over a period of close to a millennium fighting with sticks and stones and a few imported weapons or trophies, since they obviously had no arms and armor craftsmen. Good thing the Ottoman brought blacksmithing to the Constantinople and the Balkans...

Albeit you are trying to be sarcastic, you are mostly right.

The Eastern Roman Empire had its own weapons producing centers that were producing Roman weapons.

The smaller "empires" you mentioned used mostly imported weapons.

None of these "empires" developed any significant weapons producing centers. This is both a cause and an effect of them remaining more like early centralized states than true empires. They are called "empires" because they conquered and brought under a centralized rule more small early medieval proto-states.

If any of the pre-ottoman Balkan states would have had a significant role in the production of weapons, there would have been
1. written or at least iconographic records about it (as there are the early Utrecht and Stuttgart psalters, or later writings about Toledo, Solingen, Passau, etc.);
2. a plethora of archeological finds of pre-ottoman weapons characteristic to these states (like there are for example the "viking swords" attesting the existence of major production centers in the Holy Roman Empire).
There are none!

And we should not confuse a swordsmith workshop that is mostly repairing and furbishing blades produced elsewhere with a production center!
And one blade here, another blade there, won't make for a weapons production tradition either!

[Turkoman.khan]

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

Albeit you are trying to be sarcastic, you are mostly right.

The Eastern Roman Empire had its own weapons producing centers that were producing Roman weapons.

The smaller "empires" you mentioned used mostly imported weapons.

None of these "empires" developed any significant weapons producing centers. This is both a cause and an effect of them remaining more like early centralized states than true empires. They are called "empires" because they conquered and brought under a centralized rule more small early medieval proto-states.

If any of the pre-ottoman Balkan states would have had a significant role in the production of weapons, there would have been
1. written or at least iconographic records about it (as there are the early Utrecht and Stuttgart psalters, or later writings about Toledo, Solingen, Passau, etc.);
2. a plethora of archeological finds of pre-ottoman weapons characteristic to these states (like there are for example the "viking swords" attesting the existence of major production centers in the Holy Roman Empire).
There are none!

And we should not confuse a swordsmith workshop that is mostly repairing and furbishing blades produced elsewhere with a production center!
And one blade here, another blade there, won't make for a weapons production tradition either!

Bravo, Marius!

[DavidFriedman]

Yes, I do also find it odd that this could be attributed to being Albanian, when all the markings show Turkish provenance. At least to my limited level of knowledge on these types of bladed weapons.

Here are two pics of the blade.

[Turkoman.khan]

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

Even Elgood in his book "The Arms of Greece and Her Balkan Neighbors in the Ottoman Period" presents many typical Turkish weapons as being Greek or from the Balkans simply based on anecdotal evidence. Namely because the owner of the blade said so... Completely unscientific, unprofessional and misleading!

Absolutely right. Moreover. I do not see any "Albanian" decor on this dagger. If there was such a decor, one could at least somehow say that this dagger is "Albanian"

[gp]

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

Last, but not least, Albania had no tradition in producing weapons and there are no known historical examples of this type of "albanian daggers" or anything similar BEFORE the Turkish Ottoman occupation.


Even Elgood in his book "The Arms of Greece and Her Balkan Neighbors in the Ottoman Period" presents many typical Turkish weapons as being Greek or from the Balkans simply based on anecdotal evidence. Namely because the owner of the blade said so... Completely unscientific, unprofessional and misleading!

Ignorance is no excuse and lack of knowledge in this forum can not be the case. I could state the same (unscientific, unprofessional and misleading!) of the above but think honestly that your are misguided resulting in some assumptions which are not all that correct.

First of all if one does search my contributions, one will find many books and publications which proof the opposite of your above statement and Turkoman arkadash's approval of being no literature on the Balkan region ( as Albania historically is much bigger than the present state...so we ought to talk about a specific Balkanregion ☺)
No disrespect and no offence intended!
I am talking about approx 40 to 50 of them in all kind of languages from all kind of countries. Between 1850 and 2020. So please do not say there is nothing written.

As for Albania (and part of Dalmatia and Bosnia even up to Slovenia), the original inhabitants (the Illyrians); many books and publications have been written as well during the last 4 decades.
Wiki also has brief info on the topic: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illyrian_weaponry

Back to Elgood: I previously stated in this forum and in literature confirmation can be found that his writting on the Balkans is based on "borrowing" from the Serbian lady Đurđica Petrović who wrote books and many publications on the topic which are a tremendous source of knowledge. (2 examples: Dubrovačko oružje u XIV veku / Dubrovnik arms in the XIV century and Balkansko oružje (XII-XIX v.) / Balkan arms X11 - XIX century)

Also in research gate you can find many publictions and books contradicting your statement and providing info on Balkan arms from before the Ottoman Empire. And not all Roman of Byzantine remnants but own developements by or during kingdoms like the Nemanjas or Asens)

A recommandation f.i. : Enes Dedić: Mirsad Sijarić, Hladno oružje iz Bosne i Hercegovine u arheologiji razvijenog i kasnog srednjeg vijeka, Univerzitet u Sarajevu – Zemaljski muzej Bosne i Hercegovine, Sarajevo 2014.

Long story short: there is a lot to be found nowadays in Romania, Bulgaria, the former Yugoslavia and Albania... if we only open our eyes and minds and leave the western tunnelvision home and yes; many of us do not master the language if books and publications are not translated, but that does not mean it doesn't exist...
Let's not forget many was ignored till 1990ies due to the cold war in which a lot was sadly ignored comming from "the other" side
And with google translate you can find your way through these books if you do not master a Slavic language...

Last but not least: when I joined this forum a couple of years ago, I was choqued by the lack of knowledge on Balkan cold weapons, with the exception of a lad with Bulgarian roots.
Too many "I think" and assumptions but no real knowledge of the weapons, the literature / books and details on the topics like kamas, bichaqs, yataghans. Yes a lot collected them and sold them due to their "exotic" nature but nowhere near the knowledge you guys have on rencongs, klewangs, kerrises and other cold weapons from the Indonesian archipelago....

F.y.i. : I am Dutch before somebody accuses me again here of being bias because I was thought in the past by a smart--beep to be a guy with Balkan roots and hence not objective.
I am a 100% born and raised "Cloggy"☺☼☺

I am not talking about the cold weapons presented here above to be Albanian, which do look to me like originating from Irak, Kurdistan, parts of Turkey close to the previous two mentioned countries.

[mariusgmioc]

Originally Posted by gp

I am not talking about the cold weapons presented here above to be Albanian, which do look to me like originating from Irak, Kurdistan, parts of Turkey close to the previous two.

But the whole discussion was about the so called "Albanian" dagger presented above and other typically Turkish weapons that are attributed to Greece or the Balkans without any, but anecdotal evidence!

And yes, I know the Illyrian weapons, as I know about the Dacian and the Celtic ones too. But these were produced and used more than 1000 (one thousand) years before the period I was referring to.
And yes, there is much historical and archeological evidence attesting that the ancient populations of the Balkans made and used their own weapons like the sica, the falx or the rhomphaia, but this is not the period I was referring to!
And betwen the period you are referring to and the period I was referring to, there were the so called "Dark Ages," a period of hundreds of years of social, economic and intellectual decline.

So, once again, I was not referring to the period of antiquity, but that of the late Middle Ages and early Renaissance before the Ottoman conquest.

[gp]

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

But the whole discussion was about the so called "Albanian" dagger presented above!

Yes, I know the Illyrian weapons, as I know about the Dacian and the Celtic ones too. But these were produced and used more than 1000 (one thousand) years before the period I was referring to. And betwen the period you are referring to and the period I was referring to there were the so called "Dark Ages," a period of hundreds of years of social, economic and intellectual decline.

So, once again, I was not referring to the period of antiquity, but that of the late Middle Ages and early Renaissance before the Ottoman conquest.

yet there still are publications on that period, just look for them...that is what I want to say.

A lot of knowledge is "dark" to many like f.i. the incompletness of Elgood . My intension is to go for the real sources

[TVV]

OK, I will try to answer this in the most serious, and hopefully the most productive manner possible.

When it comes to the specific khanjar that started the thread, I am actually inclined to agree that it is Turkish. So I am not arguing about this particular item.

However, the very generalized statement that the vast majority of Balkan weapons from the 18th and 19th centuries are actually Turkish is incorrect on multiple levels.

There was extensive arms and armor production in the Balkans during these times, documented by the Ottoman administration itself for the purpose of administering the craftsmen and merchants and collect appropriate taxes. Elgood has done a great job of providing references to these records. In fact, a good portion of the arms and armor production in the Balkans was exported all over the Ottoman Empire and even as far as areas under nominal Ottoman control, such as Algeria for example.

Moreover, it is very hard to claim an exclusive ethnic origin of a certain weapon. Is the yataghan a Turkish weapon or a Balkan one? If Turkish, why did it not exist in Central Asia where the Seljuks come from, but only appears in the 16th century following the Ottoman conquest of the Balkans, where such blades existed all the way back in antiquity? Is the kilic a Turkish weapon considering the hilt was probably adopted from the Mamluks and the curved saber was known and used in the Balkans back in the 9th century AD, if not even earlier? Even when it comers to firearms like the lednice and rat tail pistols there is probably a strong case to be made that these are local Balkan versions inspired by Italian originals.

This is not meant to deny that there were Ottoman contributions to the production of arms and armor in the Balkans - it was in the interest of the Ottoman military to foster and encourage such production. Ottoman stylistic and decorative influence is also undeniable, just like it is in other areas of the Empire, but the vast number of different regional types of arms and accoutrements also shows strong local participation in the development and evolution of these items.

As collectors we have the option to label anything produced within the territory of the Ottoman Empire as Ottoman, regardless of whether it is a Laz yatagahan, a Yemeni jambiya or an Albanian rat tail pistol. This is the approach of the Askeri Museum and all its publications for example. Alternatively, we can acknowledge that a multi-ethnic empire that stretched over three continents had all kinds of regional variations in its arms and armor, all with their local names and users, which included a variety of people that were not Turks.