Deccani handles?

Jim McDougall · 30th April 2016, 01:20 AM

So...Ariel......you discover the phenomenon of hybridization after some 'Slivovitz' ? Not sure what this stuff is, nor, more important ..how much you had....but, .uh, I'm in Texas, and its Lone Star not that ale you mentioned for me.

I try not to indulge in alcohol and sword studies.......at least not since the Drambuie, tulwar......and ceiling fan!!

Now that you have piqued our interest........no paper? so I guess the movie is out if the question.

What is remarkable is that out of this Slivovitz addled query.......some brilliant observations by Jens and Ian seem more than worthy of serious consideration.
As Ian has noted, hybridization is far more complex than simple categorization to period or region. Also as Jens has pointed out, and as you agree, development and transition is typically subtle and gradual.

As I have learned, mostly from Jens, the definition of Deccani or the Deccan itself is actually more complex than can be explained readily, and as in Ian's observation, the factors being considered take that even further.

As always, these discussions are not about being right or wrong, nor I would hope, not debates, just fact finding missions or sharing of ideas.

It would seem that your idea of probable Deccani provenance is quite plausible, but as with most Indian arms, there remains the possibility of other provenance with the constant diffusion of weapons.

By 'the numbers' and Occams Razor, my feeling is they probably are Deccani. As to finite region in that rather broad spectrum, the jury is still out!

Jens Nordlunde · 30th April 2016, 01:22 PM

Ariel,
The mixed hilts are possible from Deccan.
There are two reasons why I wont say it 100%. First I would like to have it in my hand, and secondly you should read what Robert writes in the Jaipur book page 128-129. He writes 'possible Kotah or Bundi', and further 'The design points to the hilt being Deccani, from the seventeenth-century, but it appears to draw on that style rather than being part of it.'
For all I know, the sword Robert shows could be Deccani, captured /bought and taken to Rajasthan, and used there till it ended up in the Jaipur armoury.

Jim,
I think you are doing quite well when judging the Indian weapons

.

Jens

ariel · 30th April 2016, 01:33 PM

Jim,

Allow me to lift a veil of ignorance from your Texan eyes.

Slivovitz is a Central European plum brandy.

Realistically, they make brandy out of every fruit possible: plums ( Polish, Czech, Balkan Slivovitz), pears ( Hungarian Palinka), cherries ( German and Swiss Kirshwasser), apples (French Calvados), you name it.

Come to think of it, they also use grape skins and pips to make grape Brandy: French Marc, Italian Grappa, Balkan Loza, Balkan Rakija, Georgian Chacha and even Peruvian/Chilean Pisco.
These are all simple peasant drinks: aristocracy took the choiciest part of the grape, ie the juice, fermented it, ran it thru sophisticated distilling apparati, aged it in special barrels and sipped it slowly. Peasants took all that grape residue, or just cheap and plentiful fruits, mashed it, made a moonshine and gulped it like real men:-))

As you can see, the infamous "name game" is played not only by weapon collectors, but by us, old sots, too:-)

I fully appreciate Ian's and Jens' comments. I am just having a gut feeling that I might be right.

What is sorely missing, is a solid list of true Deccani examples with such handles.

Elgood has one.

Does anybody here knows of other examples: provenance would be crucially important.

Who knows, we may even make a Bollywood movie out of it, " The Adoni Conspiracy", with Danny de Vito playing Aurangzeb, Nicole Kidman as Queen Victoria, and late Rudolf Nureev as Alexander Borgia :-)

ariel · 30th April 2016, 01:43 PM

Jens,
Thanks! Glad you also have the same gut feeling.Getting better proof is another thing altogether.

If you or any other Forumite happen to recall other examples of such hilts on proven Deccani swords, please let me know.

Jens Nordlunde · 30th April 2016, 09:12 PM

Ariel,
You must remember that tons of weapons were taken in Deccan after all the battles and moved to Rajasthan.
Why leave weapons on the battle field that the enemies can use against you at a later time?
Very few of these weapons are registrated as comming from the Deccan. The only ones I am aware of, are the ones in the Bikaner armoury, and only some of them are marked as comming from Deccan.
This gives us another head ache, and that is are all the chiselled weapons from the Deccan, or are they north Indian?
If you read Goetz, you will see, that all the gold and silver decoration came slowly in the north, for a long time chiselling was prefered, by others than the Mughals.
Chiselling was used a lot in the south, but are all the chiselled weapons in the Bikaner armoury from the south?
Would you be able to point out the ones from Deccan?

ariel · 30th April 2016, 10:26 PM

Jens,
Yes, it is a conundrum...

If we cannot identify actual examples from Deccan, is it possible at least to talk about " Deccani pattern"?

Or, do you think even that is hopeless?

You know, I never thought much about Deccan: for me martial culture of India was either North or South. The entire center of the country was a blur, a white spot.

Just to think that we cannot pinpoint anything specific about it, is rather depressing. Dhup? Sossun Pata? Tegha? Are even they Deccani in origin?
Kind of tragic for the martial culture of almost half of the entire India to disappear without a trace.....

When Elgood can write a whole book about Vijayanagara, two volumes about a single Northern museum but only a short and tentative paper about the entire Deccan, it means we lost a giant chunk of human history....

Jens Nordlunde · 1st May 2016, 10:44 AM

Ariel,

Some types can be pin-pointed to Deccan, while other types will get the stamp - maybe/could be/perhaps/possible and so on.
An example could be a Deccani miniature. You see one of the Deccani Sultans and two or three other persons. We know who the Sultan is, but the names of the others are seldom given, so are ther employd at the court, or are they visitors? If they are visitors, maybe from Rajasthan their weapons are not from Deccan, but you can get the feeling that when they are shown in a Deccani miniature it must be Deccani weapons. They could be Deccani weapons, but they dont have to be.
In the very early times, the kukri and the kora were widely spread over big parts of India, but this did not last, at least not in most places.

There is, however, some hope ahead as many objects of art from Deccan have been researched far more than the weapons, and that is where we should look for some of the answers - books like.
Mohamed, Bashir: The Arts of the Muslim Knight
Stronge, Susan: Bidri Ware
Zebrowski, Mark: Deccan Painting
and others.

30th April 2016, 01:33 PM	#3
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Jim, Allow me to lift a veil of ignorance from your Texan eyes. Slivovitz is a Central European plum brandy. Realistically, they make brandy out of every fruit possible: plums ( Polish, Czech, Balkan Slivovitz), pears ( Hungarian Palinka), cherries ( German and Swiss Kirshwasser), apples (French Calvados), you name it. Come to think of it, they also use grape skins and pips to make grape Brandy: French Marc, Italian Grappa, Balkan Loza, Balkan Rakija, Georgian Chacha and even Peruvian/Chilean Pisco. These are all simple peasant drinks: aristocracy took the choiciest part of the grape, ie the juice, fermented it, ran it thru sophisticated distilling apparati, aged it in special barrels and sipped it slowly. Peasants took all that grape residue, or just cheap and plentiful fruits, mashed it, made a moonshine and gulped it like real men:-)) As you can see, the infamous "name game" is played not only by weapon collectors, but by us, old sots, too:-) I fully appreciate Ian's and Jens' comments. I am just having a gut feeling that I might be right. What is sorely missing, is a solid list of true Deccani examples with such handles. Elgood has one. Does anybody here knows of other examples: provenance would be crucially important. Who knows, we may even make a Bollywood movie out of it, " The Adoni Conspiracy", with Danny de Vito playing Aurangzeb, Nicole Kidman as Queen Victoria, and late Rudolf Nureev as Alexander Borgia :-) Last edited by ariel; 30th April 2016 at 01:44 PM.

30th April 2016, 01:20 AM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,785	So...Ariel......you discover the phenomenon of hybridization after some 'Slivovitz' ? Not sure what this stuff is, nor, more important ..how much you had....but, .uh, I'm in Texas, and its Lone Star not that ale you mentioned for me. I try not to indulge in alcohol and sword studies.......at least not since the Drambuie, tulwar......and ceiling fan!! Now that you have piqued our interest........no paper? so I guess the movie is out if the question. What is remarkable is that out of this Slivovitz addled query.......some brilliant observations by Jens and Ian seem more than worthy of serious consideration. As Ian has noted, hybridization is far more complex than simple categorization to period or region. Also as Jens has pointed out, and as you agree, development and transition is typically subtle and gradual. As I have learned, mostly from Jens, the definition of Deccani or the Deccan itself is actually more complex than can be explained readily, and as in Ian's observation, the factors being considered take that even further. As always, these discussions are not about being right or wrong, nor I would hope, not debates, just fact finding missions or sharing of ideas. It would seem that your idea of probable Deccani provenance is quite plausible, but as with most Indian arms, there remains the possibility of other provenance with the constant diffusion of weapons. By 'the numbers' and Occams Razor, my feeling is they probably are Deccani. As to finite region in that rather broad spectrum, the jury is still out!

30th April 2016, 01:22 PM	#2
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,713	Ariel, The mixed hilts are possible from Deccan. There are two reasons why I wont say it 100%. First I would like to have it in my hand, and secondly you should read what Robert writes in the Jaipur book page 128-129. He writes 'possible Kotah or Bundi', and further 'The design points to the hilt being Deccani, from the seventeenth-century, but it appears to draw on that style rather than being part of it.' For all I know, the sword Robert shows could be Deccani, captured /bought and taken to Rajasthan, and used there till it ended up in the Jaipur armoury. Jim, I think you are doing quite well when judging the Indian weapons . Jens

30th April 2016, 01:43 PM	#4
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Jens, Thanks! Glad you also have the same gut feeling.Getting better proof is another thing altogether. If you or any other Forumite happen to recall other examples of such hilts on proven Deccani swords, please let me know.

30th April 2016, 09:12 PM	#5
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,713	Ariel, You must remember that tons of weapons were taken in Deccan after all the battles and moved to Rajasthan. Why leave weapons on the battle field that the enemies can use against you at a later time? Very few of these weapons are registrated as comming from the Deccan. The only ones I am aware of, are the ones in the Bikaner armoury, and only some of them are marked as comming from Deccan. This gives us another head ache, and that is are all the chiselled weapons from the Deccan, or are they north Indian? If you read Goetz, you will see, that all the gold and silver decoration came slowly in the north, for a long time chiselling was prefered, by others than the Mughals. Chiselling was used a lot in the south, but are all the chiselled weapons in the Bikaner armoury from the south? Would you be able to point out the ones from Deccan?

30th April 2016, 10:26 PM	#6
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Jens, Yes, it is a conundrum... If we cannot identify actual examples from Deccan, is it possible at least to talk about " Deccani pattern"? Or, do you think even that is hopeless? You know, I never thought much about Deccan: for me martial culture of India was either North or South. The entire center of the country was a blur, a white spot. Just to think that we cannot pinpoint anything specific about it, is rather depressing. Dhup? Sossun Pata? Tegha? Are even they Deccani in origin? Kind of tragic for the martial culture of almost half of the entire India to disappear without a trace..... When Elgood can write a whole book about Vijayanagara, two volumes about a single Northern museum but only a short and tentative paper about the entire Deccan, it means we lost a giant chunk of human history....

1st May 2016, 10:44 AM	#7
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,713	Ariel, Some types can be pin-pointed to Deccan, while other types will get the stamp - maybe/could be/perhaps/possible and so on. An example could be a Deccani miniature. You see one of the Deccani Sultans and two or three other persons. We know who the Sultan is, but the names of the others are seldom given, so are ther employd at the court, or are they visitors? If they are visitors, maybe from Rajasthan their weapons are not from Deccan, but you can get the feeling that when they are shown in a Deccani miniature it must be Deccani weapons. They could be Deccani weapons, but they dont have to be. In the very early times, the kukri and the kora were widely spread over big parts of India, but this did not last, at least not in most places. There is, however, some hope ahead as many objects of art from Deccan have been researched far more than the weapons, and that is where we should look for some of the answers - books like. Mohamed, Bashir: The Arts of the Muslim Knight Stronge, Susan: Bidri Ware Zebrowski, Mark: Deccan Painting and others.