'Rose' Mark on the spine of Solingen blades

Jim McDougall · 24th November 2023, 06:37 AM

Keith, in trying to locate the reference to Koln (Cologne), I recall reading this passim, but it seems this situation was in earlier years of the Solingen blade producing phenomenon. What was said was that while the blades were of course made in Solingen, they were sent to Koln for mounting, and that for some time German swords from these regions were termed 'Koln swords'.
This kind of circumstance happens in a number of cases such as with the swords of North Italy from various cities were collectively termed 'Genoan' as that was the port of export.

In the period in discussion which is centered in later years of 18thc. the focus has been on fully decorated blades being exported into England.

What I just found is from "The American Eagle Pommel Sword:The Early Years 1794-1830", Andrew Mowbray, 1988, p.55;

"...almost all of the earliest eagle pommeled swords cutlered in London used blades imported from Solingen by any one of a number of local brokers specializing in the German blade trade".
It is noted that Runkel was the most important, however there were a number of others with family in Solingen furnishing them with blades as well.

Further noted, "...commodity quality Solingen blades were at this time, almost ALWAYS of simple blue and gilt decoration, sprigs amidst hastily outlined crude panoplies of arms. Because of their non nationalistic designs, this style of blade could be sold widely throughout Europe".

While the references refer to the swords being exported from England to America by London cutlers, the important notes are to the fact that Solingen was supplying fully decorated blades to England and other nations in the period 1790s-1815.
The references to these blades apply of course to officers swords, and it is noted that the examples with decorated blades were likely from Solingen, and with plain blades were most probably from Birmingham.

I would note that the blades by Thomas Gill, who initiated the so called 'sword scandal' in 1790s was a Birmingham maker, as was James Wooley who both produced officers sabers without the blued and gilt decoration typically, and used their own blades, as far as I have known.
The 'scandal' was the claim that English blades by Gill, Wooley,et al were not only as good but better than the imported German blades. Runkel furnished German blades for the testing.

It is unclear whether artisans decorating the Solingen blades were there or in nearby Koln, but possibly that cutler industry indeed remained as before for fully decorated blades.

For listings of sword makers and cutlers in England 19th c.

The source by Mowbray (op. cit.) has two pages of names but possibly incomplete as the focus was on exports to America.
Others:
"Swords for Sea Service", (2 vol.) W.E.May, P.G.W.Annis, 1970 most comprehensive
"Swords and Sword Makers of England and Scotland", Richard Bezdek, 2003
" London Silver Hilted Swors", Leslie Southwick, 2001

These are most useful compendiums, but it sounds as if Mr. Langham is doing a great deal of primary research beyond these sources. These, especially 'May & Annis' (the venerable standby used since the 70s) have been the 'go to' sources on this topic for many years. Mr. Langhams work will be a welcome and important addition.

Radboud · 24th November 2023, 07:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

I would note that the blades by Thomas Gill, who initiated the so called 'sword scandal' in 1790s was a Birmingham maker, as was James Wooley who both produced officers sabers without the blued and gilt decoration typically, and used their own blades, as far as I have known.

At the time, British cutlers were complaining about the tariffs on blades imported from Solingen. They argued that British-produced blades were sub-standard to the German ones. Thomas Gill contested this, claiming that blades produced by him were every bit, if not better than German made blades. He tried on several occasions to have his claim tested by the Ordinance board until finally, the East India Trading company agreed to conduct a test involving swords produced by him, Wooly and supplied by Runkel.

Not surprisingly (possibly because the designer of the testing machine was a close friend of his) Thomas Gill's swords came out on top with a very low failure rate. Next were Runkels' imports. Woollys swords came last, with well over half failing the test.

What followed was a lengthy exchange of letters published in the local papers between Gill and Woolly.

Of interest is the time when Runkel was caught falsifying his import documentation to reduce the duty cost. Some 5,000 blades were confiscated and bladesmiths such as Gill then petitioned to have the blades given to them as compensation.

Interestingly, these tests do not appear to have dented Woolly's reputation, as they remained one of the prominent bladesmiths of the time. Regarding the decoration, they produced blades for the government (remember that regular cavalry soldiers were still supplied their swords by the government), East India Company and private purchase officers. It's pretty common to find officer blades by Woolly that have been decorated in blue and guilt, with their logo on them.

urbanspaceman · 24th November 2023, 11:18 AM

Here is another little something from my book on the Shotley Bridge swordmakers:

Around 1830, an interesting story is told by an Oley descendant regarding his father (3rd generation William Oley) to travelling chronicler William Hone who was visiting Shotley Bridge:
"James Justice Runkel, a German pedlar, who travelled in this country with his various wares, smuggled over from the continent a quantity of sword-blades, and, with a view of legalizing them and giving them currency, he applied to the father of my informant for permission to put his name upon them. This was accordingly done, and they were sold under the name of Oligar (sic). But government ultimately detected the fraud, and Oley gave evidence in London that the blades had not issued from his manufactory at Shotley."

History: In 1787, Runkel was brought to trial at the Court of Exchequer for the alleged undervaluing of imported goods. The trial did not run to completion, but concluded when Runkel agreed to settle and pay two thirds of the value of the confiscated swords, as well as all court costs and expenses. His payment came to £1,480.00: a sum that would be worth around £172,600 in today’s money.

You will appreciate, I am sure, that in 1787, the Oleys were suppliers of substantial quantities of blades and were, incidentally, regarded nationwide as the producers of the finest quality blades... as you would expect.

In regard to Thomas Gill and sons: where did they learn to forge fine quality blades?

Radboud · 24th November 2023, 09:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by urbanspaceman

In regard to Thomas Gill and sons: where did they learn to forge fine quality blades?

Thomas Gill's father was a maker of fine tools and files, Thomas continued that business before branching out to sword making. He was also quite an innovator so there is a fair chance he was partially self-taught since he would have an excellent understanding of the base metal working skills.

Hotspur · 29th November 2023, 05:03 PM

I only have one of my own. This seems to be the largest assortment in one place but I think we need to better sort the pile by rose variety, then common (which is a complicated description of its own).

A for instance here, Schnitzler&Kirschbaum, furnishing swords. Supplying swords. Producing swords. K&S, Kirshbaum&Shimmelbusch producing swords. Runkle, producing, etc, ad nauseam. Langham has regarded the matters somewhat the same. How much actual work was going on in house?

There are two different S&K 'roses' in this thread. What should that tell us?

I still think the adopted 'rose' jargon regards the various massive forge complexes supplying blades and foundries supplying castings. An edit to consider that maybe we are looking at the B&G artists themselves, labeling their work.

The W. on a blade speaks volumes to me but it is an entirely different discussion. Another link in a chain answering a question for me (re; Widmann). Yup, that's German work

Lots of nice piccies, I'll post my one (listen, no one likes their baby regarded as ugly)

Cheers
GC

24th November 2023, 06:37 AM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,775	Keith, in trying to locate the reference to Koln (Cologne), I recall reading this passim, but it seems this situation was in earlier years of the Solingen blade producing phenomenon. What was said was that while the blades were of course made in Solingen, they were sent to Koln for mounting, and that for some time German swords from these regions were termed 'Koln swords'. This kind of circumstance happens in a number of cases such as with the swords of North Italy from various cities were collectively termed 'Genoan' as that was the port of export. In the period in discussion which is centered in later years of 18thc. the focus has been on fully decorated blades being exported into England. What I just found is from "The American Eagle Pommel Sword:The Early Years 1794-1830", Andrew Mowbray, 1988, p.55; "...almost all of the earliest eagle pommeled swords cutlered in London used blades imported from Solingen by any one of a number of local brokers specializing in the German blade trade". It is noted that Runkel was the most important, however there were a number of others with family in Solingen furnishing them with blades as well. Further noted, "...commodity quality Solingen blades were at this time, almost ALWAYS of simple blue and gilt decoration, sprigs amidst hastily outlined crude panoplies of arms. Because of their non nationalistic designs, this style of blade could be sold widely throughout Europe". While the references refer to the swords being exported from England to America by London cutlers, the important notes are to the fact that Solingen was supplying fully decorated blades to England and other nations in the period 1790s-1815. The references to these blades apply of course to officers swords, and it is noted that the examples with decorated blades were likely from Solingen, and with plain blades were most probably from Birmingham. I would note that the blades by Thomas Gill, who initiated the so called 'sword scandal' in 1790s was a Birmingham maker, as was James Wooley who both produced officers sabers without the blued and gilt decoration typically, and used their own blades, as far as I have known. The 'scandal' was the claim that English blades by Gill, Wooley,et al were not only as good but better than the imported German blades. Runkel furnished German blades for the testing. It is unclear whether artisans decorating the Solingen blades were there or in nearby Koln, but possibly that cutler industry indeed remained as before for fully decorated blades. For listings of sword makers and cutlers in England 19th c. The source by Mowbray (op. cit.) has two pages of names but possibly incomplete as the focus was on exports to America. Others: "Swords for Sea Service", (2 vol.) W.E.May, P.G.W.Annis, 1970 most comprehensive "Swords and Sword Makers of England and Scotland", Richard Bezdek, 2003 " London Silver Hilted Swors", Leslie Southwick, 2001 These are most useful compendiums, but it sounds as if Mr. Langham is doing a great deal of primary research beyond these sources. These, especially 'May & Annis' (the venerable standby used since the 70s) have been the 'go to' sources on this topic for many years. Mr. Langhams work will be a welcome and important addition. Last edited by Jim McDougall; 24th November 2023 at 06:53 AM.

24th November 2023, 11:18 AM	#3
urbanspaceman Member Join Date: Sep 2017 Location: Tyneside. North-East England Posts: 517	Runkel Here is another little something from my book on the Shotley Bridge swordmakers: Around 1830, an interesting story is told by an Oley descendant regarding his father (3rd generation William Oley) to travelling chronicler William Hone who was visiting Shotley Bridge: "James Justice Runkel, a German pedlar, who travelled in this country with his various wares, smuggled over from the continent a quantity of sword-blades, and, with a view of legalizing them and giving them currency, he applied to the father of my informant for permission to put his name upon them. This was accordingly done, and they were sold under the name of Oligar (sic). But government ultimately detected the fraud, and Oley gave evidence in London that the blades had not issued from his manufactory at Shotley." History: In 1787, Runkel was brought to trial at the Court of Exchequer for the alleged undervaluing of imported goods. The trial did not run to completion, but concluded when Runkel agreed to settle and pay two thirds of the value of the confiscated swords, as well as all court costs and expenses. His payment came to £1,480.00: a sum that would be worth around £172,600 in today’s money. You will appreciate, I am sure, that in 1787, the Oleys were suppliers of substantial quantities of blades and were, incidentally, regarded nationwide as the producers of the finest quality blades... as you would expect. In regard to Thomas Gill and sons: where did they learn to forge fine quality blades?

29th November 2023, 05:03 PM	#5
Hotspur Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Nipmuc USA Posts: 491	I only have one of my own. This seems to be the largest assortment in one place but I think we need to better sort the pile by rose variety, then common (which is a complicated description of its own). A for instance here, Schnitzler&Kirschbaum, furnishing swords. Supplying swords. Producing swords. K&S, Kirshbaum&Shimmelbusch producing swords. Runkle, producing, etc, ad nauseam. Langham has regarded the matters somewhat the same. How much actual work was going on in house? There are two different S&K 'roses' in this thread. What should that tell us? I still think the adopted 'rose' jargon regards the various massive forge complexes supplying blades and foundries supplying castings. An edit to consider that maybe we are looking at the B&G artists themselves, labeling their work. The W. on a blade speaks volumes to me but it is an entirely different discussion. Another link in a chain answering a question for me (re; Widmann). Yup, that's German work Lots of nice piccies, I'll post my one (listen, no one likes their baby regarded as ugly) Cheers GC Attached Images Last edited by Hotspur; 29th November 2023 at 11:41 PM.