Sword ID

ABooth · 11th February 2007, 09:45 PM

I purchased this sword many years ago. It was represented as being part of a battlefield pickup after the battle of Omdurman. I would like to establish whether it is of that locality and time frame ( Sudan, 1898). The green scale is 12 inches. I have a spear and a shield that came with the sword but figured the sword would give more information. All comments are appreciated. Also can send more pictures if requested: encamp4911@mypacks.net Thanks for you attention.

Mark · 12th February 2007, 03:30 PM

Welcome to the forum, ABooth.

This is an interesting sword. The blade and the scabbard profile (swollen tip) are those of a kaskara, but the handle and decoration are those of a Manding sword (which are usually curved).

Many kaskara entered European collections after the battle of Omdurman, where the battlefield was reportedly littered with them. I couldn't say this is one of them, though the condition is so fine that it would not seem to have been through a battle. Maybe it was re-mounted.

katana · 12th February 2007, 04:22 PM

Hi Abooth,
I think Mark is right. The condition is exceptional for a sword used in battle over 100 years ago and IMHO I feel it is much younger. If you could post close-ups of the blade it may help to date it. The link below is about the Takouba and will probably help. I have seen Manding swords with Takouba (Toureg sword) blades before (usually they (Manding) have curved sabre-like blades). Because of the trading routes that link many tribes in the North Africa, these variations are not uncommon.

Regards David

http://www.vikingsword.com/ethsword/takouba/index.html

Jim McDougall · 12th February 2007, 05:53 PM

I strongly doubt the battlefield attribution to this weapon, especially in the mounts which are distinctly Manding work from Mali, as has already been noted. It should be recalled that Mali was an extremely important Saharan center in trade, and it seems to me that there are profound connections there with the trade from Eastern Africa. It seems that the guardless mounts of the Omani kattara, which also used broadsword blades from Europe as found on the kaskara, seem to compellingly suggest association to the hilt of the Manding sabre. Oman of course maintained a Sultanate in Zanzibar, whose trade not only confluenced with international powers, but entered the African mainland to trans-Saharan caravan routes.

I believe that Omani kattaras carrying their traditional broadsword blades could certainly have diffused to Mali, where the blade may have been remounted in local fashion. Most of the Manding swords of course, carry European sabre blades. It is interesting to note that Omani kattara are also known to be mounted with sabre blades.

Best regards,
Jim

ABooth · 12th February 2007, 06:27 PM

Thank you for the helpful responses. As requested here are shots of the blade - one side and the other.

TVV · 13th February 2007, 03:42 AM

The blade profile is diffirent that the one on takoubas, but some of them were mounted with European broadsword blades, so I wonder if this could be a local imitation of such a broadsword blade? It looks like it was certainly locally made.

Jim McDougall · 14th February 2007, 03:33 AM

Hi TVV,
You're right about the use of European trade blades in takoubas, but it seems that takoubas invariably had rounded points, while this blade, distinctly heavier than most takouba blades, clearly has the kaskara spear point. I am inclined to think that since European blades were typically altered in that manner, they would have kept to that peculiarity.
Having noted that, I would rethink my comment suggesting that an Omani kattara may have been remounted in Mali, as the kattara tends to have a rounded tip in the examples I have seen, thus would not correspond with this blade.

I have always wondered how two broadsword forms such as the kaskara and takouba have remained distinctly separate forms, despite the well known diffusion of edged weapons throughout North Africa.

Best regards,
Jim

TVV · 14th February 2007, 03:45 AM

Jim,
You are as always absolutely correct that there are many differences between takoubas' blades and this one - not only the point, but also the blades on takoubas tend to taper towards the tip, while the edges on this one are parallel. I guess by method of elimination this may actually turn out to be a kaskara blade after all.
Regards,
Teodor

katana · 14th February 2007, 11:21 AM

Looking at the first pictures posted I had assumed that the blade was relatively thin. The 'point' had been noted....but thought that it had been 're-profiled'.
The blade 'close-ups' tell a different story. The blade is relatively thick.....IMHO of local manufacture....and with parallel edges and the 'point' ...as already stated ....seems to suggest a re-hilted Kaskara. The lack of the 'moon' stamps also, I feel, confirms that this is not Takouba.
I cannot tell whether the 3 'fullers' have been ground out or chiselled, enhanced pictures suggest that they were ground out with an angle grinder but I am no where near 'sure'.

The blade seems younger than its 100 years, but, there is the possiblity that the blade had been 'over hauled' (cleaned, it would lose all its patina) prior to 're-hilting'.

If the 'fullers' were formed by an angle grinder at the time this blade was first manufactured ......it would have been 'too young' to have been at Omdurman....

Still, nevertheless a very nice sword

ABooth · 14th February 2007, 02:59 PM

Many thanks to all for the input. I liked the decorations on the scabbard and on the hilt and found the possible place of origin very interesting. Again Thanks. ABooth

Lew · 14th February 2007, 03:32 PM

Booth

I think this is a variation of a Manding sword with a straight blade probably from a kaskara as far as age goes I would place this between 1898-1920. Here is two of mine with an older European blades. After taking a closer at your sword I think it could possibly be from the late 1890s to 1900. Gentlemen take a good look at the leather on the scabbard it does have a nice old patina and just because the blade is very clean that may not mean a newer sword. I have some older daggers from 1898-1900 and the blades are emaculate. Maybe the warrior was killed at the begining of the battle before he had a chance to use his sword??? You never know

Lew

Tim Simmons · 14th February 2007, 04:41 PM

I have ww2 knives with worse condition leather work and blades, and old knives in very good condition as no doubt we all have. So looks can deceive, it all depends on how well things have been kept in the past. This looks like a sword from the western Sahara with a straight blade.

Looking at the fullers it could well be forged locally. Spear point blades are not unkown on the more serious fighting arm knives and other weapons.

Tim Simmons · 14th February 2007, 05:32 PM

This picture shows how travelled sword form are in this vast region of Africa. This picture is of a king in the semi desert area of north Cameroon. more fasinating picture here.http://haha.nu/amazing/kings-of-africa/

drdavid · 16th February 2007, 06:01 AM

Thanks for posting that link Tim, what a distinguished group of gentlemen. You would have to say the King of Kuba seems ready for action. Great images.
cheers
DrD

11th February 2007, 09:45 PM	#1
ABooth Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 3	Sword ID I purchased this sword many years ago. It was represented as being part of a battlefield pickup after the battle of Omdurman. I would like to establish whether it is of that locality and time frame ( Sudan, 1898). The green scale is 12 inches. I have a spear and a shield that came with the sword but figured the sword would give more information. All comments are appreciated. Also can send more pictures if requested: encamp4911@mypacks.net Thanks for you attention. Attached Images

12th February 2007, 06:27 PM	#5
ABooth Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 3	Sword ID Thank you for the helpful responses. As requested here are shots of the blade - one side and the other. Attached Images

14th February 2007, 02:59 PM	#10
ABooth Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 3	Sword ID Many thanks to all for the input. I liked the decorations on the scabbard and on the hilt and found the possible place of origin very interesting. Again Thanks. ABooth

14th February 2007, 03:32 PM	#11
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Booth I think this is a variation of a Manding sword with a straight blade probably from a kaskara as far as age goes I would place this between 1898-1920. Here is two of mine with an older European blades. After taking a closer at your sword I think it could possibly be from the late 1890s to 1900. Gentlemen take a good look at the leather on the scabbard it does have a nice old patina and just because the blade is very clean that may not mean a newer sword. I have some older daggers from 1898-1900 and the blades are emaculate. Maybe the warrior was killed at the begining of the battle before he had a chance to use his sword??? You never know Lew Attached Images Last edited by LOUIEBLADES; 14th February 2007 at 03:53 PM.

12th February 2007, 03:30 PM	#2
Mark Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 987	Welcome to the forum, ABooth. This is an interesting sword. The blade and the scabbard profile (swollen tip) are those of a kaskara, but the handle and decoration are those of a Manding sword (which are usually curved). Many kaskara entered European collections after the battle of Omdurman, where the battlefield was reportedly littered with them. I couldn't say this is one of them, though the condition is so fine that it would not seem to have been through a battle. Maybe it was re-mounted.

12th February 2007, 04:22 PM	#3
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Hi Abooth, I think Mark is right. The condition is exceptional for a sword used in battle over 100 years ago and IMHO I feel it is much younger. If you could post close-ups of the blade it may help to date it. The link below is about the Takouba and will probably help. I have seen Manding swords with Takouba (Toureg sword) blades before (usually they (Manding) have curved sabre-like blades). Because of the trading routes that link many tribes in the North Africa, these variations are not uncommon. Regards David http://www.vikingsword.com/ethsword/takouba/index.html

12th February 2007, 05:53 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,738	I strongly doubt the battlefield attribution to this weapon, especially in the mounts which are distinctly Manding work from Mali, as has already been noted. It should be recalled that Mali was an extremely important Saharan center in trade, and it seems to me that there are profound connections there with the trade from Eastern Africa. It seems that the guardless mounts of the Omani kattara, which also used broadsword blades from Europe as found on the kaskara, seem to compellingly suggest association to the hilt of the Manding sabre. Oman of course maintained a Sultanate in Zanzibar, whose trade not only confluenced with international powers, but entered the African mainland to trans-Saharan caravan routes. I believe that Omani kattaras carrying their traditional broadsword blades could certainly have diffused to Mali, where the blade may have been remounted in local fashion. Most of the Manding swords of course, carry European sabre blades. It is interesting to note that Omani kattara are also known to be mounted with sabre blades. Best regards, Jim

13th February 2007, 03:42 AM	#6
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,597	The blade profile is diffirent that the one on takoubas, but some of them were mounted with European broadsword blades, so I wonder if this could be a local imitation of such a broadsword blade? It looks like it was certainly locally made.

14th February 2007, 03:33 AM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,738	Hi TVV, You're right about the use of European trade blades in takoubas, but it seems that takoubas invariably had rounded points, while this blade, distinctly heavier than most takouba blades, clearly has the kaskara spear point. I am inclined to think that since European blades were typically altered in that manner, they would have kept to that peculiarity. Having noted that, I would rethink my comment suggesting that an Omani kattara may have been remounted in Mali, as the kattara tends to have a rounded tip in the examples I have seen, thus would not correspond with this blade. I have always wondered how two broadsword forms such as the kaskara and takouba have remained distinctly separate forms, despite the well known diffusion of edged weapons throughout North Africa. Best regards, Jim

14th February 2007, 03:45 AM	#8
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,597	Jim, You are as always absolutely correct that there are many differences between takoubas' blades and this one - not only the point, but also the blades on takoubas tend to taper towards the tip, while the edges on this one are parallel. I guess by method of elimination this may actually turn out to be a kaskara blade after all. Regards, Teodor

14th February 2007, 11:21 AM	#9
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Looking at the first pictures posted I had assumed that the blade was relatively thin. The 'point' had been noted....but thought that it had been 're-profiled'. The blade 'close-ups' tell a different story. The blade is relatively thick.....IMHO of local manufacture....and with parallel edges and the 'point' ...as already stated ....seems to suggest a re-hilted Kaskara. The lack of the 'moon' stamps also, I feel, confirms that this is not Takouba. I cannot tell whether the 3 'fullers' have been ground out or chiselled, enhanced pictures suggest that they were ground out with an angle grinder but I am no where near 'sure'. The blade seems younger than its 100 years, but, there is the possiblity that the blade had been 'over hauled' (cleaned, it would lose all its patina) prior to 're-hilting'. If the 'fullers' were formed by an angle grinder at the time this blade was first manufactured ......it would have been 'too young' to have been at Omdurman.... Still, nevertheless a very nice sword

14th February 2007, 04:41 PM	#12
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,736	I have ww2 knives with worse condition leather work and blades, and old knives in very good condition as no doubt we all have. So looks can deceive, it all depends on how well things have been kept in the past. This looks like a sword from the western Sahara with a straight blade. Looking at the fullers it could well be forged locally. Spear point blades are not unkown on the more serious fighting arm knives and other weapons.

14th February 2007, 05:32 PM	#13
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,736	This picture shows how travelled sword form are in this vast region of Africa. This picture is of a king in the semi desert area of north Cameroon. more fasinating picture here.http://haha.nu/amazing/kings-of-africa/

16th February 2007, 06:01 AM	#14
drdavid Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Australia Posts: 369	Thanks for posting that link Tim, what a distinguished group of gentlemen. You would have to say the King of Kuba seems ready for action. Great images. cheers DrD