unusual small little moro kris for id please

Ian · 4th August 2019, 04:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chiefheadknocker

I have cleaned the blade up a little more and tried some vinegar but cant see any pattern , would of been nice to see a twist core , nevermind cant win them all !

You might try to etch it after warming the blade. Vinegar can be a weak etchant on some steels. Also, make sure there is no residual oil or wax on the blade before etching. Isopropyl alcohol is my preferred agent for cleaning off any oil or grease before etching.

chiefheadknocker · 4th August 2019, 09:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ian

You might try to etch it after warming the blade. Vinegar can be a weak etchant on some steels. Also, make sure there is no residual oil or wax on the blade before etching. Isopropyl alcohol is my preferred agent for cleaning off any oil or grease before etching.

Thanks ian , i have done as you said ,i have some isopropyl alcohol and so ive cleaned it well then heated the blade under hot water , i then cleaned it again whilst it was hot and used vinegar , but still it doesnt show much pattern of any kind , the steel seems very hard , when i first tried removing the rust it took a long time to get it off ,
what else would you recommend to etch it ?
regards
chief

Battara · 4th August 2019, 07:10 PM

On this nice Sulu early kris, I would try ferrous cloride etchant next.

Another possibility is that it is not laminated after all. I have a 18c blade which is also Sulu (perhaps Tawi-Tawi) and it does not show any laminations either, never mind twist core.

mross · 5th August 2019, 04:12 PM

Yeah this type is a conundrum, every one of this type I saw was a twist core until it wasn't. Still they are my favorite types to collect. They are very old and as far as I can tell there have been few to no copies of this type in the recent past. I say few just to cover myself, I have never seen a modern copy. So they are old and a very nice edition to your collection. Congrats.

chiefheadknocker · 5th August 2019, 07:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battara

On this nice Sulu early kris, I would try ferrous cloride etchant next.

Another possibility is that it is not laminated after all. I have a 18c blade which is also Sulu (perhaps Tawi-Tawi) and it does not show any laminations either, never mind twist core.

Hi thanks for your advice , i think i might try ferrous cloride , its worth a go.
i do like this little sword whether its laminated twist core or not its a very tactile piece

DaveS · 6th August 2019, 02:16 AM

I have seen many of this type of kris, and i would be very surprised if this kris was NOT a twist-core. I use Phosphoric acid (metal etch). you can get it at any hardware store. Iv'e tried all the other acids and found phosphoric to be the best.......at least among the all the acids that i have tried. Polish the blade up to 1200 grit wet and dry, you will not hurt the blade doing this. Degrease with acetone and wipe with a clean rag until there is no more black residue. Then take a torch and carefully heat the blade up slightly on both sides just enough to a warm touch. If you get the blade a little too warm it will give too dark of an etch and you will have to repolish again. It will not hurt the blade, you will just have to start over with the polish. Use the acid right out of the bottle. Unlike the other acids you don't have to dilute it at all. I like to do an etch outside in bright sunlight so i can get a good feel for what is happening. Paint one side with the brush, then turn the blade and do the other side. Keep alternating and watching until you see some kind of a pattern come out........OR NOT!!. Then rinse with hot water and brush both sides with a solution of water and baking soda to neutralize the acid. Then oil the blade. Any oil will work. If it sounds complicated, it isn't. It's really easy. Good luck. You may be really surprised...........Dave.

kai · 6th August 2019, 09:25 PM

I agree that a few more rounds of etching are likely to reveal some laminations. No twistcore, I’d guess though.

While phosphoric acid may be safer for a permanent etch (BTW, what concentration is given on your bottle, Dave?), ferric chloride yields a strong contrast for an exploratory etch of a not fully polished surface ; be careful though since it tends to promote ongoing corrosion: I’d just etch a window along the middle of the blade first.

The final approach will depend on the outcome.

Regards,
Kai

DaveS · 7th August 2019, 09:45 PM

Kai: Iv'e never really noticed what % strength there is on the bottle (actually the can). I have used it for many years and for me anyway it has always given me the best results without diluting it at all. Also unlike ferric chloride, if you happen to get it on silver it won't turn the silver black. As long as you neutralize with baking soda and oil, there should be no later corrosion. At least that has been my experience. Ferric Chloride to me is the WORST acid one can use to etch. It always seemed to give my blades a slightly greenish tinge, maybe because it is a compound of chlorine.........anyway that's what iv'e always thought, rightly or wrongly. Also the Phosphoric gives a nice black on silver contrast. I noticed several years ago that one ingredient in both Pepsi and Coke is Phosphoric Acid. Someday i'm going to try to etch a blade with some Pepsi or Coke. Will let everyone know how it comes out. If it doesn't work at least i'll have something to drink.

Battara · 7th August 2019, 11:49 PM

For me ferric chloride is the closest to the vinegar and fruit etching in color. Green? - weird......not happened to me, only browns and yellows.

Also I totally agree with the rubbing down with baking soda after the etch - this stops the continued etch and prevents eventual corrosion post etch.

kai · 8th August 2019, 06:33 AM

Hello Jose,

Quote:

I totally agree with the rubbing down with baking soda after the etch - this stops the continued etch and prevents eventual corrosion post etch.

Sure, with most acids a neutralization step is crucial. However, the main problem with ferric chloride is that it promotes corrosion even after full neutralization: any remaining chloride ions will act as catalyst for rusting. Forever! With many antique blades removing all chloride by rinsing/soaking is a real challenge if at all feasible!

BTW, the beauty of acetic acid (vinegar) is that any traces will evaporate upon gently heating the blade.

Regards,
Kai

kai · 8th August 2019, 06:55 AM

Hello Jose,

Quote:

For me ferric chloride is the closest to the vinegar and fruit etching in color. Green? - weird......not happened to me, only browns and yellows.

Those browns and yellows are active rust - I’d be weary about any of these warmer colors!

I suspect that varying (technical) qualities of ferric chloride as well as different usages and possibly recycled etchant are responsible for variable results.

Greenish colors may result from copper dissolved in the etchant by contact with brass, etc.

Regards,
Kai

4th August 2019, 07:10 PM	#3
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,139	On this nice Sulu early kris, I would try ferrous cloride etchant next. Another possibility is that it is not laminated after all. I have a 18c blade which is also Sulu (perhaps Tawi-Tawi) and it does not show any laminations either, never mind twist core.

5th August 2019, 04:12 PM	#4
mross Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 478	Yeah this type is a conundrum, every one of this type I saw was a twist core until it wasn't. Still they are my favorite types to collect. They are very old and as far as I can tell there have been few to no copies of this type in the recent past. I say few just to cover myself, I have never seen a modern copy. So they are old and a very nice edition to your collection. Congrats.

6th August 2019, 02:16 AM	#6
DaveS Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 327	I have seen many of this type of kris, and i would be very surprised if this kris was NOT a twist-core. I use Phosphoric acid (metal etch). you can get it at any hardware store. Iv'e tried all the other acids and found phosphoric to be the best.......at least among the all the acids that i have tried. Polish the blade up to 1200 grit wet and dry, you will not hurt the blade doing this. Degrease with acetone and wipe with a clean rag until there is no more black residue. Then take a torch and carefully heat the blade up slightly on both sides just enough to a warm touch. If you get the blade a little too warm it will give too dark of an etch and you will have to repolish again. It will not hurt the blade, you will just have to start over with the polish. Use the acid right out of the bottle. Unlike the other acids you don't have to dilute it at all. I like to do an etch outside in bright sunlight so i can get a good feel for what is happening. Paint one side with the brush, then turn the blade and do the other side. Keep alternating and watching until you see some kind of a pattern come out........OR NOT!!. Then rinse with hot water and brush both sides with a solution of water and baking soda to neutralize the acid. Then oil the blade. Any oil will work. If it sounds complicated, it isn't. It's really easy. Good luck. You may be really surprised...........Dave.

6th August 2019, 09:25 PM	#7
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,223	I agree that a few more rounds of etching are likely to reveal some laminations. No twistcore, I’d guess though. While phosphoric acid may be safer for a permanent etch (BTW, what concentration is given on your bottle, Dave?), ferric chloride yields a strong contrast for an exploratory etch of a not fully polished surface ; be careful though since it tends to promote ongoing corrosion: I’d just etch a window along the middle of the blade first. The final approach will depend on the outcome. Regards, Kai

7th August 2019, 09:45 PM	#8
DaveS Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 327	Kai: Iv'e never really noticed what % strength there is on the bottle (actually the can). I have used it for many years and for me anyway it has always given me the best results without diluting it at all. Also unlike ferric chloride, if you happen to get it on silver it won't turn the silver black. As long as you neutralize with baking soda and oil, there should be no later corrosion. At least that has been my experience. Ferric Chloride to me is the WORST acid one can use to etch. It always seemed to give my blades a slightly greenish tinge, maybe because it is a compound of chlorine.........anyway that's what iv'e always thought, rightly or wrongly. Also the Phosphoric gives a nice black on silver contrast. I noticed several years ago that one ingredient in both Pepsi and Coke is Phosphoric Acid. Someday i'm going to try to etch a blade with some Pepsi or Coke. Will let everyone know how it comes out. If it doesn't work at least i'll have something to drink.

7th August 2019, 11:49 PM	#9
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,139	For me ferric chloride is the closest to the vinegar and fruit etching in color. Green? - weird......not happened to me, only browns and yellows. Also I totally agree with the rubbing down with baking soda after the etch - this stops the continued etch and prevents eventual corrosion post etch.