my last keris

Marcokeris · 1st May 2023, 05:37 PM

Sorry David, but there must be a reason why these types of dhapur are depicted in old texts with the hilt pointing in the opposite side! ....If we agree with our geometry, the reason is extremely simple: as I have already written in many previous posts: the keris could not enter, into the sheath, correctly.

Marcokeris · 1st May 2023, 05:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marcokeris

Sorry David, but there must be a reason why these types of dhapur are depicted in old texts with the hilt pointing in the opposite side! ....If we agree with our geometry, the reason is extremely simple: as I have already written in many previous posts: the keris could not enter, into the sheath, correctly.

and are not rare case

David · 1st May 2023, 08:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marcokeris

and are not rare case

Of course it's rare. If someone like Alan Maisey states that "in over 70 years of handling & seeing keris I believe I have never seen an (apparently) professionally mounted keris set into its scabbard back to front" i don't know what else to call it.
You seem to be responding very defensively to remarks about this presentation. Obviously we aren't arguing with the fact that it exists and that others exist that are also mounted in this manner. The evidence is clear that examples exist.
I am not convinced that the reason is a simple as it could not enter the sheath properly if it wasn't reversed though. It still leaves us with the question of why is this the case and why do we have these blades that ignore the Javanese concept of condong leheh.

A. G. Maisey · 1st May 2023, 11:43 PM

The failure of a blade to enter an already existing scabbard is most certainly not any sort of a reason to reverse the correct position of a keris in its wrongko.

A halfway competent tukang wrongko or m'ranggi can always fit any blade to any wrongko, where a blade is so far outside the norm that it will not fit an existing wrongko, then a new wrongko will be made for it.

Now, this idea of "existing wrongko".

Yes, we can purchase low quality, premade wrongkos in a market, these pasar quality wrongkos are made with a very small hole, sometimes only a round, drilled hole, the fitting is done by first fitting the blade to the atasan (gambar), then the gandar is fitted to the atasan and the angle of gandar to atasan is fixed to accommodate the blade angle.

So we have a couple of examples of an incorrect blade fit.

I've never seen this, I've not heard of it, I cannot imagine its place in keris society. However, it does exist, so my only guess is that it was done to suit the personal philosophy of an individual.

Obviously an extremely rare variation, so I guess for some collectors whose knowledge of the keris is rooted in sources from outside Javanese keris society, this deviation in dress style might make this style of keris somewhat more desirable than would otherwise be the case.

Marcokeris · 2nd May 2023, 08:02 AM

Could it be then that the scabbard suitable for receiving these dhapurs in the correct insertion (with minimal modification) is the sandang wailakat?

I write this because it is something that immediately catches my eye.

Furthermore, by rotating this scabbard by 180 degrees, as I had already written, could have a position of the kris in line with the tradition with which the kris is hung on a blawong and in line with the tradition with which the scabbard is held in hand correctly before to pull out the blade from the wailakat

A. G. Maisey · 2nd May 2023, 09:08 AM

Marco, I am unable to comment upon your hypotheticals, but I can say that I have owned & seen a lot of keris of these forms that have been fitted in the conventional fashion to sandang walikat wrongkos.

Incidentally, we do not ever "pull the blade from the scabbard", we gently press the part of the wrongko that is in front of the sirah cecak, away from the blade, ie, the wrongko is gently removed from the blade, the blade is not removed from the wrongko.

Marcokeris · 2nd May 2023, 09:45 AM

Yes Alan, I know well how to remove the wrongko.

I posted this topic because didn't seem so meaningless to me and it was light years away from the idea of disturbing some collector or scholar.
I also posted it to spice up this forum with new topics. A forum that, with all my respect, seems to me to have slowly gone into hibernation in recent years. A fall asleep perhaps also due to the reason that most of the Indonesian collectors and scholars have left without being replaced by new ones

1st May 2023, 05:37 PM	#1
Marcokeris Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Italy Posts: 928	Sorry David, but there must be a reason why these types of dhapur are depicted in old texts with the hilt pointing in the opposite side! ....If we agree with our geometry, the reason is extremely simple: as I have already written in many previous posts: the keris could not enter, into the sheath, correctly. Attached Images

2nd May 2023, 08:02 AM	#5
Marcokeris Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Italy Posts: 928	Could it be then that the scabbard suitable for receiving these dhapurs in the correct insertion (with minimal modification) is the sandang wailakat? I write this because it is something that immediately catches my eye. Furthermore, by rotating this scabbard by 180 degrees, as I had already written, could have a position of the kris in line with the tradition with which the kris is hung on a blawong and in line with the tradition with which the scabbard is held in hand correctly before to pull out the blade from the wailakat Attached Images

1st May 2023, 11:43 PM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,736	The failure of a blade to enter an already existing scabbard is most certainly not any sort of a reason to reverse the correct position of a keris in its wrongko. A halfway competent tukang wrongko or m'ranggi can always fit any blade to any wrongko, where a blade is so far outside the norm that it will not fit an existing wrongko, then a new wrongko will be made for it. Now, this idea of "existing wrongko". Yes, we can purchase low quality, premade wrongkos in a market, these pasar quality wrongkos are made with a very small hole, sometimes only a round, drilled hole, the fitting is done by first fitting the blade to the atasan (gambar), then the gandar is fitted to the atasan and the angle of gandar to atasan is fixed to accommodate the blade angle. So we have a couple of examples of an incorrect blade fit. I've never seen this, I've not heard of it, I cannot imagine its place in keris society. However, it does exist, so my only guess is that it was done to suit the personal philosophy of an individual. Obviously an extremely rare variation, so I guess for some collectors whose knowledge of the keris is rooted in sources from outside Javanese keris society, this deviation in dress style might make this style of keris somewhat more desirable than would otherwise be the case.

2nd May 2023, 09:08 AM	#6
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,736	Marco, I am unable to comment upon your hypotheticals, but I can say that I have owned & seen a lot of keris of these forms that have been fitted in the conventional fashion to sandang walikat wrongkos. Incidentally, we do not ever "pull the blade from the scabbard", we gently press the part of the wrongko that is in front of the sirah cecak, away from the blade, ie, the wrongko is gently removed from the blade, the blade is not removed from the wrongko.

2nd May 2023, 09:45 AM	#7
Marcokeris Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Italy Posts: 928	Yes Alan, I know well how to remove the wrongko. I posted this topic because didn't seem so meaningless to me and it was light years away from the idea of disturbing some collector or scholar. I also posted it to spice up this forum with new topics. A forum that, with all my respect, seems to me to have slowly gone into hibernation in recent years. A fall asleep perhaps also due to the reason that most of the Indonesian collectors and scholars have left without being replaced by new ones