Beautiful sword

Multumesc · 9th June 2019, 06:22 PM

GENOA ? I have seen swords with GENOA.

Jim McDougall · 9th June 2019, 06:57 PM

Very well observed guys!!! I saw the letters but did not associate them with GENOA, which would make perfect sense. Many of the Styrian blades from various centers favored Italian markings, with the 'sickle' marks (the dentated eyelash arcs) most typically seen. Often the word GENOA appeared between these arcs, though some had the mysterious 'acrostic' (?) FRINGIA in its place.

While the three dot configuration typically was at either end of each arc, these were often placed at various other locations, with other marks or in varying configurations. Some references have suggested these symbolize grapes (?) but I think it more likely to represent the Holy Trinity, much as the cross was often use along with names and phrases in western swords.

The triple dot symbol is as noted often seen on blades in India as in various Asian and Eastern spheres, again typically regarded as having to do with the 'Trimurti' or trinity in other religious contexts as well.

These kinds of marks in the case of the 'dots' on such weapons seem to appear in strategic locations on the blade, as if to auspiciously augment or bolster that spot. In other cases, the three dots re: trinity may be applied to emphasize or 'bless' a phrase, motto or name in such manner. There are many possibilities and variations of course, and these notes are simply speculations.

Genoa was one of the key export points of North Italian blade making centers, and it is believed this was perhaps the reason for such emphatic recognition of Genoa on Italian blades, often in general. As such, the centers in Styria and other East European supply entrepots for blades often copied these markings, and in this case, may have used local script (as suggested by Wayne) to approximate the Genoan moniker. As seen in the plate of markings sometimes it can be misspelled or awkwardly reproduced as in the example where it is hard to read and presuming this to be Genoa meant.

Wayne, those dotted circles as seen on this Indian sword are most commonly seen in Northern India, Afghanistan and into many Central Asian regions. They may be regarded in this character as perhaps astral, with the sun represented, as certain Rajput clans were represented by sun, moon etc.

Multumesc · 11th June 2019, 05:15 PM

And ultimately, from what century is this karabela sword

kronckew · 11th June 2019, 05:47 PM

Hard to say, they've been around a while. Mine is apparently early 20c where there was a revival of popularity & some officers carried them on parade. I'm fairly sure it's polish tho the inscription is in latin. Wiki, notoriously inaccurate has a listing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karabela that indicated it's use in Poland to to the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish...n_Commonwealth but it as noted here was used elsewhere much earlier. Hopegully somone acn help pin it down.

ALEX · 12th June 2019, 07:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kronckew

Hard to say, they've been around a while. Mine is apparently early 20c where there was a revival of popularity & some officers carried them on parade. I'm fairly sure it's polish tho the inscription is in latin. Wiki, notoriously inaccurate has a listing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karabela that indicated it's use in Poland to to the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish...n_Commonwealth but it as noted here was used elsewhere much earlier. Hopegully somone acn help pin it down.

It is Polish (made in Poland) and I believe more recent, likely late 20thC if not early 21st. I believe the blade is stiff and heavy, which would indicate its decorative nature, the hilt is stained soft wood and pins are of modern art-supply type.

Jim McDougall · 11th June 2019, 09:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Multumesc

And ultimately, from what century is this karabela sword

Sorry the discourse was not more explicit, we got side tracked with the history of the form

In my opinion this is likely a much older blade but remounted in a 'karabela' style hilt more recently made.

Actually these karabela sabres have I believe been pretty much regularly used in a parade or ceremonial sense since the end of the 17th c., which is why they have often been described as the 'national sword of Poland'. While it seems odd that a sword of apparent Ottoman heritage would be so chosen, but the victory over the Turks by Polish king John Sobieski III at Vienna in 1683 was one of the most significant in Polish history.

9th June 2019, 06:22 PM	#1
Multumesc Member Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: Romania Posts: 202	Frumoasa sabie GENOA ? I have seen swords with GENOA. Attached Images

9th June 2019, 06:57 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,785	Very well observed guys!!! I saw the letters but did not associate them with GENOA, which would make perfect sense. Many of the Styrian blades from various centers favored Italian markings, with the 'sickle' marks (the dentated eyelash arcs) most typically seen. Often the word GENOA appeared between these arcs, though some had the mysterious 'acrostic' (?) FRINGIA in its place. While the three dot configuration typically was at either end of each arc, these were often placed at various other locations, with other marks or in varying configurations. Some references have suggested these symbolize grapes (?) but I think it more likely to represent the Holy Trinity, much as the cross was often use along with names and phrases in western swords. The triple dot symbol is as noted often seen on blades in India as in various Asian and Eastern spheres, again typically regarded as having to do with the 'Trimurti' or trinity in other religious contexts as well. These kinds of marks in the case of the 'dots' on such weapons seem to appear in strategic locations on the blade, as if to auspiciously augment or bolster that spot. In other cases, the three dots re: trinity may be applied to emphasize or 'bless' a phrase, motto or name in such manner. There are many possibilities and variations of course, and these notes are simply speculations. Genoa was one of the key export points of North Italian blade making centers, and it is believed this was perhaps the reason for such emphatic recognition of Genoa on Italian blades, often in general. As such, the centers in Styria and other East European supply entrepots for blades often copied these markings, and in this case, may have used local script (as suggested by Wayne) to approximate the Genoan moniker. As seen in the plate of markings sometimes it can be misspelled or awkwardly reproduced as in the example where it is hard to read and presuming this to be Genoa meant. Wayne, those dotted circles as seen on this Indian sword are most commonly seen in Northern India, Afghanistan and into many Central Asian regions. They may be regarded in this character as perhaps astral, with the sun represented, as certain Rajput clans were represented by sun, moon etc. Attached Images Last edited by Jim McDougall; 9th June 2019 at 07:13 PM.

11th June 2019, 05:15 PM	#3
Multumesc Member Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: Romania Posts: 202	Beautiful sword And ultimately, from what century is this karabela sword

11th June 2019, 05:47 PM	#4
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,152	Hard to say, they've been around a while. Mine is apparently early 20c where there was a revival of popularity & some officers carried them on parade. I'm fairly sure it's polish tho the inscription is in latin. Wiki, notoriously inaccurate has a listing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karabela that indicated it's use in Poland to to the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish...n_Commonwealth but it as noted here was used elsewhere much earlier. Hopegully somone acn help pin it down. Attached Images