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Old 27th January 2021, 10:16 PM   #31
Sajen
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@ Alan,

So I was very careful and have spoken from "old/antique", like said, I've handled this piece so it's my own age estimation, not something I get passed on, I believe myself! It has clearly age what Paolo also confirmed in the above given thread.
Anyway, the dress has some age and was far better carved as the most recent ones I've seen until now.
But I am very ok with the term "Late Colonial"!

@ David,

Sadly I am not able to show other examples, my aim was to show an older dress in the same fashion. Like said, it's my own opinion that this piece has age, not an opinion I parrot.
How an original dress originally has looked we maybe never will know when we are not able to see an antique one with provenance.


Regards,
Detlef
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Old 28th January 2021, 06:31 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sajen
Sadly I am not able to show other examples, my aim was to show an older dress in the same fashion. Like said, it's my own opinion that this piece has age, not an opinion I parrot.
How an original dress originally has looked we maybe never will know when we are not able to see an antique one with provenance.

I don't think anyone has accused you of parroting any opinions, especially since you clearly stated that you had handled the kujang personally.
Nor do i believe anyone has argued whether that kujang "has age". The difference of opinion may only be how much age.
How kujang were originally dressed is indeed something we may never know considering that examples are said to go back as far as the 9th century. But certainly kujang exist today with dress as old as the 19th century and very possibly before. The dress on the one you have shown is indeed older than some, but this exact design is one that we see time and time again in 20th century kujang onward, but not, AFAIK, in any existing older examples. I am not sure when this dress form began, but it does not appear to be very old relatively speaking. It would be interesting to see more older ones like the one you have shown and figure out where, when and why it became a model for so many modern kujangs.
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Old 28th January 2021, 07:51 PM   #33
A. G. Maisey
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David, in a sort of a way I remarked that others had influenced Detlef's opinion, and Detlef, if your opinion was indeed not influenced by others, but purely the result of your own examination, and if you find this ill placed remark of mine offensive, I most sincerely apologise for any offence I may have caused.
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Old 30th January 2021, 02:05 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey
...., and Detlef, if your opinion was indeed not influenced by others, but purely the result of your own examination, and if you find this ill placed remark of mine offensive, I most sincerely apologise for any offence I may have caused.


Hello Alan,

Yes, of course it was my own estimation, otherwise I wouldn't state it!
But don't worry, no offense taken, I am not a child! And you see that I am able to clarify it.
I have seen this piece some time before Wolfgang Spielmann decided to sell it. When I first saw it I thought also that the dress is recent and expressed it to him, his answer was that I shall look close, nothing more. When this is an influence I was maybe influenced! What he gets told from the seller on Java I really don't know.

Regards,
Detlef
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Old 30th January 2021, 02:16 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David
How kujang were originally dressed is indeed something we may never know considering that examples are said to go back as far as the 9th century. But certainly kujang exist today with dress as old as the 19th century and very possibly before. The dress on the one you have shown is indeed older than some, but this exact design is one that we see time and time again in 20th century kujang onward, but not, AFAIK, in any existing older examples. I am not sure when this dress form began, but it does not appear to be very old relatively speaking. It would be interesting to see more older ones like the one you have shown and figure out where, when and why it became a model for so many modern kujangs.


Hello David,

I don't know of any other older dresses in this fashion. The most antique kujang I have seen comes without any dress or with newly made Central Java dress or in seldom cases with self made old dress which seldom follow an evident guideline. Would be interesting to see some other old dresses at this place when members have such ones.

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Detlef
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Old 3rd February 2021, 08:45 PM   #36
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Here we can see an older dress for a kujang, taken from the thread SÚverin has given in post #16. Makara?
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