Ethnographic Arms & Armour
 

Go Back   Ethnographic Arms & Armour > Discussion Forums > European Armoury
FAQ Calendar Today's Posts Search

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 3rd May 2024, 03:37 PM   #1
Jim McDougall
Arms Historian
 
Jim McDougall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66
Posts: 9,785
Default

With regard to artistic license, this is a very valid consideration with respect to the viability of classifying and identifying swords from portraits and artwork.
Radboud has brought up most salient points, and while in many cases, the swords represented in portraits may indeed be reliable. However reading through the late Nick Norman's introduction to "The Rapier and Smallsword 1460-1820"(1980), he notes the caveats involved in using these sources as final categorization and dating of forms.

The intention of art is not only to carry out an accurate representation of a subject, but to convey other aspects that promote more subjective reactions.

This painting of Thomas Wentworth, First Earl of Stratford, was painted by the famed Sir Anthony van Dyck, who was the painter for Charles I in 1632.
Van Dyck, was well known not only for his art, but popularization of his recognizable beard style, which became de riguer among English cavaliers and indeed Charles I himself. Interestingly we see likenesses of these in figures on many swords of the period, including the familiar 'mortuary hilts'.

As far as I can find in Norman there is no direct match to the hilt of the sword seen in this painting, however p.129 (fig. 27) there is an Italian rapier of mid 16th c. with a somewhat similar pommel. Here I would note that Van Dyck had been studying in Genoa for some time before returning to England in 1632.

This rapier depicted has the similar high relief oblong pommel seen on earlier rapier hilts, as mentioned many Italian, as well as the long quillon arms of these rapiers. Here the similarity ends as there is no knuckleguard, nor the other guard bars typically seen on the more developed hilt systems.
Thus, while seemingly this appears to be an Italian style rapier, as yet not positively identified, it seems likely the image was based on those forms.
Whether or not an actual sword was worn and drawn from, we cannot know for sure.

What is interesting though is that Charles I, a Stuart, had strong ties to Italy
of course, and Italian influences important. While at this time of the painting (1633) the dish hilt and lighter transitional rapiers were in vogue, this form of more traditional 16th century rapier, mostly Italian, would well represent the profound inclinations to those swords would have presumed a stately presence to the figure.

While these details are in of course different light from the discussion in post #330, they are still relevant to the context of the swords and climate of the English court in the 1630s, and Hounslow period.
Attached Images
 
Jim McDougall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 3rd May 2024, 06:46 PM   #2
urbanspaceman
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: Tyneside. North-East England
Posts: 517
Default errors and answers

We went down the wrong road:
the portrait is of 1st Earl of Strafford (a supporter of Charles 1st) who was executed at Tower Hill in 1641.
His son, the 2nd Earl (died 1695) was a good friend of James 2nd and he owned the Shotley Bridge sword which passed to his nephew Thomas Watson (1693 - 1750) who had the caskets made.
There is a better image of the 1st earl portrait which looks like the original; the portrait inserted earlier in this thread has been over-painted adding a dog and moving the helmet; see attached.
The sword now looks like a Pappenheimer to me but I am uncertain. Nice tournament armour.
Attached Images
 
urbanspaceman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 3rd May 2024, 07:11 PM   #3
Jim McDougall
Arms Historian
 
Jim McDougall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66
Posts: 9,785
Default

Well noted Keith, now that I see the shells it does look like a Pappenheimer.
Norman speaks to the often practiced 'overpainting', not to mention later 'restorations'. It really does set the mind to wondering just how much license did come into play.
Jim McDougall is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 08:40 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Posts are regarded as being copyrighted by their authors and the act of posting material is deemed to be a granting of an irrevocable nonexclusive license for display here.