Ethnographic Arms & Armour
 

Go Back   Ethnographic Arms & Armour > Discussion Forums > European Armoury
User Name
Password
FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 12th March 2020, 09:33 PM   #1
Morten
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Posts: 10
Default Unknown Norwegian navy pistol

In Norway we have flintlock pistol with unknown origin. The flintlock is marked Fischer, the barrel is marked with a crown'd C5 for Christian 5'th, Danish-Norwegian king who died in 1699. It also have markings from the main base of the Norwegian navy. A while ago I baught me one of this pistols, and I take out the barrel and found Zella markings from 17'th century. The caliber is approx. 16mm.
Is there anyone that have a idea when this pistol is made, and who is this Fisher that have marked the lock?
Attached Images
     
Morten is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13th March 2020, 01:37 PM   #2
corrado26
Member
 
corrado26's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Black Forest, Germany
Posts: 856
Default

One knows about very few examples of this pistol in Norway. It has crude brass mountings. FRW = Frederiks Waerk. This was a major naval base and shipyard by the city of Stavern in Norway. The FRW markings indicate that this is a composite pistol from Frederiks Waerns from the middle or late 18th century. Some owners of this pistols wanted them to be from C5 period, but the markings and mounts don't match up, leaving us with a non-pattern naval composite pistol. The only option of the makers signature FISCHER can be a number of different gun makers around 1750 working in Zella St. Blasii what says that the lock is a later replacement. The pistols we see today belongs t a small composite group of pistols put together to arm one or two ships with pistols.

There is no literature confirming the above composite as there was probably never made any record of it. So is this just a theory ?

By the way: The marking FRW = Frederiks Waern (Waern = factory in old Norwegian spelling). This type of marking is 50 - 70 years later than the C5 stamp, confirming that we are most likely looking on a non regulated pattern naval composite pistol .

Wikipedia:
Fredriksvern (also called Friderichsværn (1801), Frederiksværn (1865), Fredriksværen (1900) and abbreviated Frsværn) was an important Norwegian naval base, just south of Larvik in Vestfold. It is named after Fredrik V Denmark-Norway.

corrado26

Last edited by corrado26 : 13th March 2020 at 01:47 PM.
corrado26 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13th March 2020, 04:58 PM   #3
Jens Nordlunde
Member
 
Jens Nordlunde's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Europe
Posts: 2,706
Default

I dont know much about the Danish weapon production, but could it be that the pistol was made at Frederiksvaerk in Denmark?
As far as I know, they did produce weapons, and could have exported some to Noway.
Jens Nordlunde is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13th March 2020, 07:23 PM   #4
Tordenskiold1721
Member
 
Tordenskiold1721's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Posts: 40
Smile

HTML Code:
Is there anyone that have a idea when this pistol is made, and who is this Fisher that have marked the lock?


It looks to me that the issue with finding the gunsmith is not being able to easily see that this is not a 17th century north European pistol but an 18th century composite pistol using an older barrel from the period of Christian IV(King of Denmark and Norway 1670 - 1699). Barrel with a later lock and markings. I believe the gunsmith that has made the lock is listed in Der Neue Stockel.

Thanks to Corrado ! You are right when placing this as a composite pistol and that the FRW markings are 50 -70 years after the C5 control stamp.

Most Danish-Norwegian naval weapons such as pistols and muskets from the period was decommissioned weapons used on land and then reused for naval use, something that in most cases had to become composite pistols and shorted down muskets to function as naval small arms of the period.
Tordenskiold1721 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14th March 2020, 07:07 AM   #5
corrado26
Member
 
corrado26's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Black Forest, Germany
Posts: 856
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde
I dont know much about the Danish weapon production, but could it be that the pistol was made at Frederiksvaerk in Denmark?
As far as I know, they did produce weapons, and could have exported some to Noway.


look at my post #2
corrado26 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14th March 2020, 07:53 AM   #6
Morten
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Posts: 10
Default

Thanks a lot for all answers. I`m agree that this most likely is a composite pistol with an old barrel. The strange thing is that we can`t find any other pistols in Denmark or Norway with a barrel like this or marked with C5 this way.
The pistol in this thread is from FMU-Forsvarsmuseet in Oslo, my pistol has a different type of flintlock, but the markings on the barrel are similar. My pistol is sent to a gunsmith for some service and to be cleaned.
Attached Images
  
Morten is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16th March 2020, 06:52 AM   #7
rickystl
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: St. Louis, MO area.
Posts: 1,535
Default

Interesting pistol. I note the lock does not have the reinforcing arm that connects the pan to the frizzen. A feature common on locks especially prior to about 1730. Of course it could also have been reused.

Rick
rickystl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17th March 2020, 04:33 AM   #8
M ELEY
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: NC, U.S.A.
Posts: 1,698
Default

Very nice piece! Although the word 'composite' sends many collectors running, one has to keep in mind the reference to this piece. As a naval weapon, perhaps it was decommissioned and made as a limited stock for private purchase. I've gone off on this subject again and again when it comes to edged weapons and it is well-known that private purchase items made for merchant-class ships and 'privateers' from old navy surplus was extremely common. Indeed, as a sea-faring country, Norway had many privateers raiding shipping and coastal regions of their enemies. This is, of course, just a theory and i wanted to throw it out there-
M ELEY is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2nd April 2020, 01:12 PM   #9
Morten
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Posts: 10
Default

Now the pistol is back from cleaning and a small restoration. I think the result is pretty good.
Attached Images
  
Morten is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 3rd April 2020, 12:33 PM   #10
David R
Member
 
David R's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 611
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by M ELEY
Very nice piece! Although the word 'composite' sends many collectors running, one has to keep in mind the reference to this piece. As a naval weapon, perhaps it was decommissioned and made as a limited stock for private purchase. I've gone off on this subject again and again when it comes to edged weapons and it is well-known that private purchase items made for merchant-class ships and 'privateers' from old navy surplus was extremely common. Indeed, as a sea-faring country, Norway had many privateers raiding shipping and coastal regions of their enemies. This is, of course, just a theory and i wanted to throw it out there-


I wonder how many perfectly decent and old items get ignored because of their "composite" nature, when in fact the work was done during the working life of the piece.
David R is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 18th April 2020, 05:09 AM   #11
Philip
Member
 
Philip's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: California
Posts: 758
Default frizzen bridle or bridge

Quote:
Originally Posted by rickystl
Interesting pistol. I note the lock does not have the reinforcing arm that connects the pan to the frizzen. A feature common on locks especially prior to about 1730. Of course it could also have been reused.

Rick


Rick, I agree in general. However, this feature came into fashion at different times in Europe. It appeared early in countries like France and England, and there sooner on higher quality locks. However, gunmakers in more conservative areas like Italy and the German-speaking lands weren't sold on the idea, almost to the end of the flintlock era. When was the last time you saw a Jágerbüchse with a lock featuring a frizzen bridle? Or any Italian flintlock or snaphaunce with this element?

The idea behind having a bridle on the pan was to have a two-point support for the frizzen pivot screw, ostensibly for the purpose of preventing misalignment of the frizzen/pan cover unit on the pan in case the screw got bent from the gun being dropped, or from excessive friction wear. However, having handled a good number of well-made German and Italian guns, even those showing signs of considerable use, I've never encountered a bent screw or so much wear that the frizzen got off kilter. The design of the locks was suitably robust, and proper fit and hardening of the parts would ensure a long functional life especially considering that the pressure exerted by the frizzen spring was not that strong.
Philip is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump



All times are GMT. The time now is 08:43 PM.


Powered by: vBulletin Version 3.0.3
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Posts are regarded as being copyrighted by their authors and the act of posting material is deemed to be a granting of an irrevocable nonexclusive license for display here.