Schiavona - The one that got away

Victrix · 22nd April 2022, 04:57 PM

Philip,

Thank you for alerting me to I Grandi Spadai Feltrini e Bellunesi by Michele Vello and Fabrizio Tonin which I will try to acquire. I have tried to source something on Northern Italian arms production in English for some time so it was welcome!

Croatia was in a double monarchy with Hungary which was in a double monarchy with Austria, so it was complicated. That’s why the Austro-Hungarian Empire is so fascinating. People traveled around for work, intermarried etc and it became a fascinating meltingpot of diversity which produced great culture.

After the nationalist revolutions of 1848 there was flirtation with pan-Slavism but I think in the former Yugoslavia they realized that sharing a similar language was less important than sharing a common culture, as the different ethnic groups had developed separately under widely different conditions for centuries. The different religions and alphabets are only parts of it (manifestations of the different cultures). After all, the US and Australia share a similar/same language but have quite different cultures.

Many dussägge were produced in Styria as a peasant weapon to counter the threat of Ottoman invasion. They also found their way to Slovenia and Croatia as a useful infantry close quarter weapon. I don’t think you find too many Storta outside Italy and Dalmatia, but their purpose is similar. There is also the German säbel of course, although the Hungarian sabre seems to have been much favoured in E.Europe.

I don’t find huge differences between the Hungarian broad sword and the spada schiavonesca. Could it be that the latter is simply the Italian name for the former from the Italian point of view? I suppose what’s characteristic for the spada schiavonesca is the S-shaped cross guard whereas the typical Hungarian broad sword often has a straight cross guard (frequently tapering towards the hilt) and a square pommel.

Victrix · 22nd April 2022, 05:12 PM

Here are a couple of items that I bid for in auctions in the past, but got away from me. Sometimes (rarely) I still think of them, but more interested in finding future interesting objects to bid for. Happy week-end everyone!

Philip · 22nd April 2022, 07:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Victrix

Here are a couple of items that I bid for in auctions in the past, but got away from me. Sometimes (rarely) I still think of them, but more interested in finding future interesting objects to bid for. Happy week-end everyone!

Hey, Victrix, I really dig that broadsword! Especially with the inscription on the blade! Do you have a pic of the entire thing? (I know this kind of sword is wandering from the topic of this thread, but I can't resist...

Victrix · 22nd April 2022, 07:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Philip

Hey, Victrix, I really dig that broadsword! Especially with the inscription on the blade! Do you have a pic of the entire thing? (I know this kind of sword is wandering from the topic of this thread, but I can't resist...

Some eyecandy for you

.

Philip · 22nd April 2022, 08:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Victrix

Some eyecandy for you

.

Thank you! As a return favor, here are a couple of images of a hand-and-half sword I used to own (all too briefly). Had to sell it to finance another purchase which was too tempting to pass up. Despite its size, the balance was excellent, you could control it very well with just one hand.

werecow · 24th April 2022, 08:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Philip

Hey, Victrix, I really dig that broadsword! Especially with the inscription on the blade! Do you have a pic of the entire thing? (I know this kind of sword is wandering from the topic of this thread, but I can't resist...

The topic of the thread started out as "swords you didn't get or lost" and only thereafter got changed to be more "Schiavona-centric" so in that sense I feel like it is certainly within the scope of the thread.

werecow · 16th July 2022, 01:54 AM

I saw this on catawiki last week and the combination of the typical cats head pommel and the simple half basket hilt caught my eye. I'm guessing the blade and hilt were a later pairing. Not a combination familiar to me and the blade's shoulders don't seem to fit. A composite? Or something else?

Philip · 16th July 2022, 06:43 AM

Looks like a recently-assembled composite to me. There is nothing remotely schiavona-ish (schiavonesque? schiavonoid?) about the basket guard. The fit of guard to blade looks clumsy. The peening of the tang to the pommel looks new, the metal is bright with no sign of corrosion or patina to the iron.

ulfberth · 16th July 2022, 07:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Philip

Looks like a recently-assembled composite to me. There is nothing remotely schiavona-ish (schiavonesque? schiavonoid?) about the basket guard. The fit of guard to blade looks clumsy. The peening of the tang to the pommel looks new, the metal is bright with no sign of corrosion or patina to the iron.

I agree with Philip, the pommel is from a shiavona, the blade possibly and the guard is from a walloon type or German type veld degen.
The guard is 18th c but indeed composit and recently peened.

fernando · 22nd April 2022, 08:07 PM

I am not an auction bidder. The sword i am showing here is not one that got away but one i had and did let go.
Someone called this example a proto schiavona.

.

Philip · 22nd April 2022, 09:34 PM

Fernando, this is quite an interesting sword. A friend in Canada has one with the same style of guard, and he calls it a "proto-schiavona" too since its construction is even simpler than the earliest recognizable schiavona hilt, the Oakeshott Type 1. His sword has a cat's head pommel but from its material (bronze) and workmanship (domed center with well-worked beaded deco, contrasting with a very plain hilt), we think it's a later replacement on an older sword.

What I find intriguing about your (former) example is that the pommel is not the Venetian feline at all. It's rather Scottish-looking, more precisely the biconical Type V as shown in Cyril Mazansky's excellent book, British Basket-Hilted Swords (2005) pp 22- 23, 78. Do you recall if there was a small groove on the lower, inverted "cone" of your pommel? Typically, that retained the edge of the basket hilt on those Scottish swords.

fernando · 23rd April 2022, 10:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Philip

... Do you recall if there was a small groove on the lower, inverted "cone" of your pommel? Typically, that retained the edge of the basket hilt on those Scottish swords.

No Filipe, i don't recall such detail, neither i have pictures taken in that angle; this took place back in 2012.
But i wouldn't discard the possibility that this pommel was a replacement. I tried to recuperate the post (?) where i had the opinion about the 'proto', to check on further possible details but ... no results.

Philip · 22nd April 2022, 07:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Victrix

Philip,

Thank you for alerting me to I Grandi Spadai Feltrini e Bellunesi by Michele Vello and Fabrizio Tonin which I will try to acquire. I have tried to source something on Northern Italian arms production in English for some time so it was welcome!

Croatia was in a double monarchy with Hungary which was in a double monarchy with Austria, so it was complicated.

I don’t find huge differences between the Hungarian broad sword and the spada schiavonesca. Could it be that the latter is simply the Italian name for the former from the Italian point of view? I suppose what’s characteristic for the spada schiavonesca is the S-shaped cross guard whereas the typical Hungarian broad sword often has a straight cross guard (frequently tapering towards the hilt) and a square pommel.

I recall finding my copy of Vello / Tonin via the worldwide bookfinder.com search engine, and was directed to Amazon (don't all roads lead to Rome, haha). Apparently it's a self-published, print-on-demand production.

Eastern Europe is fascinating for the prevalence of double and multi monarchies. Poland especially -- Wladzislaw II Jagiello (King of Poland, Grand Duke of Lithuania), Wladzislaw III Warnieczyk ( King of Poland and Hungary, died fighting Turks at Varna), Stefan Bathóry (King of Poland and Hungary, Prince of Transylvania, Duke of Prussia), Zygmunt III Waza (you are no doubt very familar with that case). And so forth.

Regarding Hungarian style broadswords, you have a point. One would think that the Hungarians, at the time they were using these things, had an entirely different name for the type, the earliest surviving examples are out of the Hungarian sphere and that nation is not Slavic. As to the differences, they are indeed small, more stylistic than substantive. Personally, I would call one of these swords schiavonesca if the blade had markings recognizable as north Italian, and if the blade profile was somewhat broad with the distinct angular tip. This blade shape seems to be a common denominator to the large number of swords of this configuration that I saw on display in the Palazzo Ducale.

22nd April 2022, 05:12 PM	#2
Victrix Member Join Date: Apr 2017 Location: Sweden Posts: 682	Here are a couple of items that I bid for in auctions in the past, but got away from me. Sometimes (rarely) I still think of them, but more interested in finding future interesting objects to bid for. Happy week-end everyone! Attached Images

16th July 2022, 01:54 AM	#7
werecow Member Join Date: Sep 2021 Location: Leiden, NL Posts: 435	I saw this on catawiki last week and the combination of the typical cats head pommel and the simple half basket hilt caught my eye. I'm guessing the blade and hilt were a later pairing. Not a combination familiar to me and the blade's shoulders don't seem to fit. A composite? Or something else? Attached Images

22nd April 2022, 08:07 PM	#10
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,647	I am not an auction bidder. The sword i am showing here is not one that got away but one i had and did let go. Someone called this example a proto schiavona. . Attached Images

22nd April 2022, 04:57 PM	#1
Victrix Member Join Date: Apr 2017 Location: Sweden Posts: 682	Philip, Thank you for alerting me to I Grandi Spadai Feltrini e Bellunesi by Michele Vello and Fabrizio Tonin which I will try to acquire. I have tried to source something on Northern Italian arms production in English for some time so it was welcome! Croatia was in a double monarchy with Hungary which was in a double monarchy with Austria, so it was complicated. That’s why the Austro-Hungarian Empire is so fascinating. People traveled around for work, intermarried etc and it became a fascinating meltingpot of diversity which produced great culture. After the nationalist revolutions of 1848 there was flirtation with pan-Slavism but I think in the former Yugoslavia they realized that sharing a similar language was less important than sharing a common culture, as the different ethnic groups had developed separately under widely different conditions for centuries. The different religions and alphabets are only parts of it (manifestations of the different cultures). After all, the US and Australia share a similar/same language but have quite different cultures. Many dussägge were produced in Styria as a peasant weapon to counter the threat of Ottoman invasion. They also found their way to Slovenia and Croatia as a useful infantry close quarter weapon. I don’t think you find too many Storta outside Italy and Dalmatia, but their purpose is similar. There is also the German säbel of course, although the Hungarian sabre seems to have been much favoured in E.Europe. I don’t find huge differences between the Hungarian broad sword and the spada schiavonesca. Could it be that the latter is simply the Italian name for the former from the Italian point of view? I suppose what’s characteristic for the spada schiavonesca is the S-shaped cross guard whereas the typical Hungarian broad sword often has a straight cross guard (frequently tapering towards the hilt) and a square pommel.

16th July 2022, 06:43 AM	#8
Philip Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: California Posts: 1,036	Looks like a recently-assembled composite to me. There is nothing remotely schiavona-ish (schiavonesque? schiavonoid?) about the basket guard. The fit of guard to blade looks clumsy. The peening of the tang to the pommel looks new, the metal is bright with no sign of corrosion or patina to the iron.

22nd April 2022, 09:34 PM	#11
Philip Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: California Posts: 1,036	Fernando, this is quite an interesting sword. A friend in Canada has one with the same style of guard, and he calls it a "proto-schiavona" too since its construction is even simpler than the earliest recognizable schiavona hilt, the Oakeshott Type 1. His sword has a cat's head pommel but from its material (bronze) and workmanship (domed center with well-worked beaded deco, contrasting with a very plain hilt), we think it's a later replacement on an older sword. What I find intriguing about your (former) example is that the pommel is not the Venetian feline at all. It's rather Scottish-looking, more precisely the biconical Type V as shown in Cyril Mazansky's excellent book, British Basket-Hilted Swords (2005) pp 22- 23, 78. Do you recall if there was a small groove on the lower, inverted "cone" of your pommel? Typically, that retained the edge of the basket hilt on those Scottish swords.