A large 19th century flintlock pistol

M ELEY · 6th February 2021, 01:05 AM

Wow, this item did open up a can of worms! Apart from my wanting it to be an earlier piece, there are similar examples in the Greenwich Maritime Museum of these types with provenance to the time period originally suggested (ca. 1810 and on). I looked again at the mark on my pistol and although my pic of it wasn't so great, it is without question a V under crown and not a W, which was a Leige mark I assume?

In regards to private purchase, I have seen all manner of strange, one-off marks for these. I used to own a cutlass of the standard m1840 Brit pattern marked 'RN". The seller told me "Royal Navy"...don't think so! No other marking. I've seen a lot of m1803's with no marking whatsoever and listed as 'after-market' for private purchase frigates.

Thanks for those great pics of your pistols, Norman! The Arabic example was particularly interesting! Corrado's example was another fascinating piece from a Leige maker.

Thanks, Fernando, for the clarification of Napoleon's control of the region. It still befuddles me unless these pistols were used by French privateers or after-market private purchase. Or only for foreign markets?! (Sudan, Middle East)

Norman, a great suggestion. I am not a firearms collector, so usually leery about taking guns apart. This example, however, with its pin system makes it easy to remove. I'll get to it hopefully soon.
So...still no clear answers to me as far as these marks. My ELG looks like the earlier mark, but what is the significance of the V under crown. If not British but Leige, is this a post 1850 mark?

Jim McDougall · 6th February 2021, 04:06 AM

From Blackmore, "British Military Firearms", 1962,
"...but with the end of the war the demand for arms dropped dramatically. The Birmingham branch was the first to suffer. In 1814 the staff was halved and in the following year Miller, the Inspector of Small Arms returned to London. Finally in 1818, the premises at Birmingham were closed".
p.272
In Appendix D, p.280, the marks of private Birmingham proof houses are shwn 25-30.
#27 is a crowned V.

In the detail on Marks pistol (OP) the Liege mark is shown as an oval ELG over star. This was the mark used from 1810-1853 in Liege.

In 1812 England was not only at war with France on the Continent, but with the American colonies in the war of 1812. The demand for arms was considerable and delays with contractors caused issues for makers. As the navy, according to Blackmore, often got the run of the mill weapons,it would not be surprising that imported pistols from Liege might have been brought n viewed at the Birmingham location.

The barrel mark was in use at Liege in 1812. The crowned V was in use at Birmingham in that year and at least until 1814.
The markings on this pistol would seem to correspond to the period of its use being contemporary to the suggestions of use in War of 1812, as well as Napoleonic campaigns. It seems quite possible these might have found use on privateers, if not on ships of the line.

M ELEY · 6th February 2021, 05:36 AM

Very nice example of your gun, David! Thanks for posting it for this discussion.

Great information, Jim! Thank you (and Mr. Blackmore!). The Birmingham angle makes perfect sense regarding an immediate need for private purchase and a quicker way to restocking the ship's defenses. I'm not disputing that this style of pistol wasn't around for a long time (quite amazing that it didn't change form much after nearly a century!). My main argument (and obviously from the records, others who study maritime artifacts) is that many of these pistols saw action during the mentioned events. Here's one from the esteemed London Museum collection-

https://www.diomedia.com/stock-photo...ge6852418.html

Norman McCormick · 6th February 2021, 12:07 PM

Hi Jim,
The ELG and star in a cartouche was used from 1810 until the present. I have attached a copy of London and Birmingham proof marks from The Worshipful Company of Gunmakers of the City of London and The Guardians of the Birmingham Proof House. This shows that a crowned V is a London proof and not Birmingham and if the gun was foreign made the V would be circled with the crown on top. All the charts I can find relating to Liege state that a crowned letter is the inspection mark from 1853 to 1877. I have also attached another chart with more specific dating.
Hope you are keeping well in this time of uncertainty.
My Regards,
Norman.

fernando · 6th February 2021, 01:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Norman McCormick

The ELG and star in a cartouche was used from 1810 until the present ...

Nothing more than a slight detail, if i may, Norman. As per my post 31#, the star was replaced by a crown in 1893

.

Norman McCormick · 6th February 2021, 02:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

Nothing more than a slight detail, if i may, Norman. As per my post 31#, the star was replaced by a crown in 1893

.

Hi Fernando,
My post was in response to Jim's statement that the ELG star in an oval was from 1810 to 1853 thereby limiting pistols with this stamp to within those dates whereas the date range is in fact greater.
My Regards,
Norman.

fernando · 6th February 2021, 02:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Norman McCormick

Hi Fernando,
My post was in response to Jim's statement that the ELG star in an oval was from 1810 to 1853 thereby limiting pistols with this stamp to within those dates whereas the date range is in fact greater.
My Regards,
Norman.

As i said Norman, a slight (by the way) detail ... more for possible future aknowledgement

Jim McDougall · 6th February 2021, 06:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Norman McCormick

Hi Jim,
The ELG and star in a cartouche was used from 1810 until the present. I have attached a copy of London and Birmingham proof marks from The Worshipful Company of Gunmakers of the City of London and The Guardians of the Birmingham Proof House. This shows that a crowned V is a London proof and not Birmingham and if the gun was foreign made the V would be circled with the crown on top. All the charts I can find relating to Liege state that a crowned letter is the inspection mark from 1853 to 1877. I have also attached another chart with more specific dating.
Hope you are keeping well in this time of uncertainty.
My Regards,
Norman.

Hi Norman,
Thank you so much for entries from this resource. I must say that while have studied swords most of my life, firearms have always seemed to elude me, so this great discussion is quite a learning curve for me. Of the very few books I have on firearms, this reference by Howard Blackmore has been with me for well over 40 years, and he seems to have been one of the most highly respected firearms authorities (according to most of the arms figures I knew in the years with the Arms & Armour Society in Loondon).

What puzzles me is that in his book (1961, attached pages) he shows items 25-30 as view and proof marks of PRIVATE Birmingham proof houses.
You will note that #27 is a crown over V. There seem to have been others using a P.

n "English Pistols and Revolvers" (J.Nigel George, 1938, p.94), the author notes the 'private proof houses were abolished in 1813, and "....a proof house similar to that of the Gunmakers of London was established at Birmingham. Arms that had undergone proof were now stamped with two marks, each in the form of two crossed sceptres surmounted by a crown, the first marked with the letter V, for viewed, the second with the letters BPC fr Birmingham Proof Co.".

As the resource you show begins with 1813 with these markings, it would seem that Mark's pistol must have been viewed by one of the number of private proof houses. During the wars (Napoleonic and 1812) the volume of firearms processed through London and these proof houses was staggering.
As previously noted, the constant break downs of flow of parts etc. with contractors was a frustration for makers, and it is easy to imagine that less costly and ready weapons from Liege would be resorted to, especally in the case for outfitting privateers.

While most resources seem to focus on 1813+, the records of gun markings seem less abundant in the years prior, as well as remarkably inconsistent.

As Mark has shown in the excellent entry from the National Maritime Museum, these sea service pistols were certainly in use early in the century. While the 'HMS Victory' association is surely spurious as they note, they do not dismiss the presence of these Belgian pistols in that period.

For me, the evidence points to the period we have been suggesting, 1810-13 for this Belgian Sea Service pistol, and likely use on any privateer vessel for the British during these wars in that time.

As for the anchor marking, just as with swords, these are by far not a prerequsite for naval weapons, and in my opinion were likely added privately in either zealous or hubris oriented character on other ranks arms.
I cannot imagine why Liege would apply such a mark, as their arms were not intended to serve any particular branch. While these pistols seem to have been regarded as 'sea service', they were used widely by any number of military units in many countries through the century.

fernando · 6th February 2021, 07:38 PM

It is naturally sensum communem that the Liegeois would not stamp the anchor or any other symbol in the lock plate of a generic (mass) production. What i have (only) suggested is, if the pistol in the museum was part of a private purchase, which all indicates it is, it would be nothing implausible that the client, a ship's captain or a sailing enterprise, would order a lot of such fireamrs for his/their crew and send along the technical drawing for the anchor to be engraved in the origin workshops. Otherwise, it is left to know where the client took the gun/s go be engraved elsewhere in England; he would certainly not require the job from the BO facilities.
Just a pitty the museum photo doesn't have macro opitions to visualize both anchor and the two initials with one's eye.
My humble perspective, this is

.

Jim McDougall · 6th February 2021, 08:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

It is naturally sensum communem that the Liegeois would not stamp the anchor or any other symbol in the lock plate of a generic (mass) production. What i have (only) suggested is, if the pistol in the museum was part of a private purchase, which all indicates it is, it would be nothing implausible that the client, a ship's captain or a sailing enterprise, would order a lot of such fireamrs for his/their crew and send along the technical drawing for the anchor to be engraved in the origin workshops. Otherwise, it is left to know where the client took the gun/s go be engraved elsewhere in England; he would certainly not require the job from the BO facilities.
Just a pitty the museum photo doesn't have macro opitions to visualize both anchor and the two initials with one's eye.
My humble perspective, this is

.

Naturally that is sensum communem that the Liege shops would not place anchors or any such defining symbol on the weapons they produced, as I have always thought of this arms center as producing a sort of generic assortment . The weapons they made were either imitations of other standing forms or heavily influenced by them. As such I had not thought that such commissions were engaged there.

Good point on the weapons once acquired being taken to engraver for markings or these kinds of motif/symbols as these specialized shops took care of such requirements. I often forget how many contractors and vendors were involved beyond the actual maker/retailer of the weapn.

Norman McCormick · 14th February 2021, 04:35 PM

Hi Richard,
I take it this is the mark you are referring to.
My Regards,
Norman.

P.S. I've just read the whole of your post and of course it is the one you're referring to re your post no 53, I blame senility it's always a good get out clause.

rickystl · 15th February 2021, 02:45 PM

Interesting that most of these pistols you find today are still in good condition.
And there use seemed to have an abrupt end during the transition to the percussion era. I've never seen one that was converted to percussion. After about a 25 year run the pistol appears to have fallen out of favor with the various governments that purchased them creating a large surplus. There is hardly an antique gun auction today that doesn't have one or two for sale.

Rick

fernando · 15th February 2021, 05:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rickystl

... There is hardly an antique gun auction today that doesn't have one or two for sale...

So true, Rick. However, contrary to what has been said here, i could swear i have read that these pistols were of fragile construction; could it be ?

Norman McCormick · 16th February 2021, 07:04 PM

Hi,
With regard to the fragility or otherwise of these pistols. The Liege one I have has obviously had the hammer repaired and also many years ago I dry fired one of these with flint in situ of course and the hammer broke in two. Maybe the quality of metalwork varies as I suspect there were many smaller manufactories turning these out by the barrel load.
Regards,
Norman.

fernando · 16th February 2021, 07:34 PM

Many many of pieces came out from Liege; the best ... and the worst. I have had both.

.

M ELEY · 16th February 2021, 10:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Norman McCormick

Hi,
With regard to the fragility or otherwise of these pistols. The Liege one I have has obviously had the hammer repaired and also many years ago I dry fired one of these with flint in situ of course and the hammer broke in two. Maybe the quality of metalwork varies as I suspect there were many smaller manufactories turning these out by the barrel load.
Regards,
Norman.

Interesting you mention this, Norman, going back to this gun's primary function. Private purchase weapons were always made on the cheap, often to be used only in a pinch and often at the cheapest price a merchant captain (or board of directors) could get by with. Thus, on private purchase swords we see surplus m1803's, mismatched blades, blacksmith quality sheet metal guards, etc. It seems likely the guns would also be treated similarly. The swords were rolled out literally in barrels to arm the crew and the pistols taken down from racks to do likewise. These were not 'tenderly handled' gentlemen's pistols. They were practically never used unless attacking an enemy or defending their ship, unlike a military pistol in the field which would see much more action. Mine is extremely sturdy and apart from one time when I pulled the trigger and the hammer fell off(having 'fired' it many times without the flint like a dummy), it has been fine and I just tightened the screw holding the hammer in place.

fernando · 6th February 2021, 01:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by M ELEY

.. My main argument (and obviously from the records, others who study maritime artifacts) is that many of these pistols saw action during the mentioned events. Here's one from the esteemed London Museum collection-
https://www.diomedia.com/stock-photo...ge6852418.html

This is undoubtedly a private purchase, (not government contracted), right ?; the presence of a ELG* stamp and the absence of British proof marks on the barrel, make it clear. The engraving of the anchor 'could' have been done in Liege. Would you figure out what the two initials mean; the ship or the gun owner ?
I may be playing the fool but, as i never saw it being commented, and for one's perusal, the ELG letters mean ÉPREUVE LIEGE. The star was replaced in 1893 by a crown.

Norman McCormick · 6th February 2021, 06:16 PM

http://www.littlegun.be/arme%20belge...belge%20gb.htm

Hi,
This may be of interest. The guns in question are described as 1815 pattern Dutch-Belgian Navy pistols.
Regards,
Norman.

fernando · 6th February 2021, 08:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Norman McCormick

http://www.littlegun.be/arme%20belge...belge%20gb.htm

Hi,
This may be of interest. The guns in question are described as 1815 pattern Dutch-Belgian Navy pistols.
Regards,
Norman.

An excelent link, Norman; i use it often to ID gunmakers. I happen to have a (bilingual) little book where Claude Gaier himself writes a synopsis on the Liege weapons making universe.
Fantastic guns shown in it; both Portuguese and Liegeoise

.

Jim McDougall · 6th February 2021, 09:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Norman McCormick

http://www.littlegun.be/arme%20belge...belge%20gb.htm

Hi,
This may be of interest. The guns in question are described as 1815 pattern Dutch-Belgian Navy pistols.
Regards,
Norman.

This is an excellent article Norman!!! Thank you!

This means that these familiar sea service pistols made in Belgium were well in use by this time (1815). Typically a 'pattern' or 'model' of a weapon type is given that designation as a result of an official order or regulation issued in that year and recognizing the form as distinct and standard.

This means that such a designated weapon has likely been in production and use already for an indeterminate period of time. The bureaucratic wheels in earlier times, incredibly, were even slower than today!
With Spanish weapons, especially in the colonies, for example, the sword colloquially termed the 'bilbo', was often regarded as a M1769, yet had been prior classed as a M1728. We cannot be sure exactly when these arming swords developed, but those years correspond to offical regulations issued.

With English swords, the M1821 swords for light cavalry(three bar hilt) and the 'heavy' with bowl hilt. While production of these began in that year, issues and complaints led to production halting 1824-25,with a hiatus until 1829. As a result these are deemed by many to be techncally 1829's while many call them 1821's.

With these pistols, that they existed as such well prior to 1815 seems to be the case, but it is good to see how they have been referenced in all these sources. The Liege factor is I think much overlooked in arms study, so this remarkably insightful discourse is outstanding!

M ELEY · 7th February 2021, 04:40 AM

Thanks to everyone for remarking on these interesting firearms. As I am not typically a collector of such, everything written here is food for thought with me.

Thank you, Norman, for that great posting on Leige production! It would seem that there are still questions on some of these pieces and more research needs to be done...but we are off to a good start here!

6th February 2021, 12:07 PM	#4
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,577	Hi Jim, The ELG and star in a cartouche was used from 1810 until the present. I have attached a copy of London and Birmingham proof marks from The Worshipful Company of Gunmakers of the City of London and The Guardians of the Birmingham Proof House. This shows that a crowned V is a London proof and not Birmingham and if the gun was foreign made the V would be circled with the crown on top. All the charts I can find relating to Liege state that a crowned letter is the inspection mark from 1853 to 1877. I have also attached another chart with more specific dating. Hope you are keeping well in this time of uncertainty. My Regards, Norman. Attached Images

14th February 2021, 04:35 PM	#11
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,577	Hi Richard, I take it this is the mark you are referring to. My Regards, Norman. P.S. I've just read the whole of your post and of course it is the one you're referring to re your post no 53, I blame senility it's always a good get out clause. Attached Images

6th February 2021, 01:05 AM	#1
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,076	Wow, this item did open up a can of worms! Apart from my wanting it to be an earlier piece, there are similar examples in the Greenwich Maritime Museum of these types with provenance to the time period originally suggested (ca. 1810 and on). I looked again at the mark on my pistol and although my pic of it wasn't so great, it is without question a V under crown and not a W, which was a Leige mark I assume? In regards to private purchase, I have seen all manner of strange, one-off marks for these. I used to own a cutlass of the standard m1840 Brit pattern marked 'RN". The seller told me "Royal Navy"...don't think so! No other marking. I've seen a lot of m1803's with no marking whatsoever and listed as 'after-market' for private purchase frigates. Thanks for those great pics of your pistols, Norman! The Arabic example was particularly interesting! Corrado's example was another fascinating piece from a Leige maker. Thanks, Fernando, for the clarification of Napoleon's control of the region. It still befuddles me unless these pistols were used by French privateers or after-market private purchase. Or only for foreign markets?! (Sudan, Middle East) Norman, a great suggestion. I am not a firearms collector, so usually leery about taking guns apart. This example, however, with its pin system makes it easy to remove. I'll get to it hopefully soon. So...still no clear answers to me as far as these marks. My ELG looks like the earlier mark, but what is the significance of the V under crown. If not British but Leige, is this a post 1850 mark?

6th February 2021, 04:06 AM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,785	From Blackmore, "British Military Firearms", 1962, "...but with the end of the war the demand for arms dropped dramatically. The Birmingham branch was the first to suffer. In 1814 the staff was halved and in the following year Miller, the Inspector of Small Arms returned to London. Finally in 1818, the premises at Birmingham were closed". p.272 In Appendix D, p.280, the marks of private Birmingham proof houses are shwn 25-30. #27 is a crowned V. In the detail on Marks pistol (OP) the Liege mark is shown as an oval ELG over star. This was the mark used from 1810-1853 in Liege. In 1812 England was not only at war with France on the Continent, but with the American colonies in the war of 1812. The demand for arms was considerable and delays with contractors caused issues for makers. As the navy, according to Blackmore, often got the run of the mill weapons,it would not be surprising that imported pistols from Liege might have been brought n viewed at the Birmingham location. The barrel mark was in use at Liege in 1812. The crowned V was in use at Birmingham in that year and at least until 1814. The markings on this pistol would seem to correspond to the period of its use being contemporary to the suggestions of use in War of 1812, as well as Napoleonic campaigns. It seems quite possible these might have found use on privateers, if not on ships of the line.

6th February 2021, 05:36 AM	#3
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,076	Very nice example of your gun, David! Thanks for posting it for this discussion. Great information, Jim! Thank you (and Mr. Blackmore!). The Birmingham angle makes perfect sense regarding an immediate need for private purchase and a quicker way to restocking the ship's defenses. I'm not disputing that this style of pistol wasn't around for a long time (quite amazing that it didn't change form much after nearly a century!). My main argument (and obviously from the records, others who study maritime artifacts) is that many of these pistols saw action during the mentioned events. Here's one from the esteemed London Museum collection- https://www.diomedia.com/stock-photo...ge6852418.html

6th February 2021, 07:38 PM	#9
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,650	It is naturally sensum communem that the Liegeois would not stamp the anchor or any other symbol in the lock plate of a generic (mass) production. What i have (only) suggested is, if the pistol in the museum was part of a private purchase, which all indicates it is, it would be nothing implausible that the client, a ship's captain or a sailing enterprise, would order a lot of such fireamrs for his/their crew and send along the technical drawing for the anchor to be engraved in the origin workshops. Otherwise, it is left to know where the client took the gun/s go be engraved elsewhere in England; he would certainly not require the job from the BO facilities. Just a pitty the museum photo doesn't have macro opitions to visualize both anchor and the two initials with one's eye. My humble perspective, this is .

15th February 2021, 02:45 PM	#12
rickystl Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO area. Posts: 1,621	Interesting that most of these pistols you find today are still in good condition. And there use seemed to have an abrupt end during the transition to the percussion era. I've never seen one that was converted to percussion. After about a 25 year run the pistol appears to have fallen out of favor with the various governments that purchased them creating a large surplus. There is hardly an antique gun auction today that doesn't have one or two for sale. Rick

16th February 2021, 07:04 PM	#14
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,577	Hi, With regard to the fragility or otherwise of these pistols. The Liege one I have has obviously had the hammer repaired and also many years ago I dry fired one of these with flint in situ of course and the hammer broke in two. Maybe the quality of metalwork varies as I suspect there were many smaller manufactories turning these out by the barrel load. Regards, Norman.

16th February 2021, 07:34 PM	#15
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,650	Many many of pieces came out from Liege; the best ... and the worst. I have had both. .

6th February 2021, 06:16 PM	#18
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,577	http://www.littlegun.be/arme%20belge...belge%20gb.htm Hi, This may be of interest. The guns in question are described as 1815 pattern Dutch-Belgian Navy pistols. Regards, Norman.

7th February 2021, 04:40 AM	#21
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,076	Thanks to everyone for remarking on these interesting firearms. As I am not typically a collector of such, everything written here is food for thought with me. Thank you, Norman, for that great posting on Leige production! It would seem that there are still questions on some of these pieces and more research needs to be done...but we are off to a good start here!