Bali Keris Info & Advice Requested

A. G. Maisey · 23rd March 2024, 08:43 PM

I feel that I am looking at an out-of-society reconstruction here.

The blade does appear to be Bali, the visible part of the wrongko could possibly have been produced by reshaping a damaged original.

The craftsmanship of the hilt is not Balinese, Javanese, nor of any other SE Asian society that I can readily identify.

The orange in the sogokan I feel was probably originally red, so with red + black + the symbolism of Siwa carried by the sogokan, we have the trimurti:- Siwa-Brahma-Wisnu. This would be a part of the out-of-culture work, it would not have been done in Bali, but could have been added by a person with some understanding of socio-religious mores in Bali.

Opinion only, I have never seen anything like this previously.

milandro · 24th March 2024, 10:08 AM

incredibly strange , although I cannot claim any in depth knowledge , my gut feeling is that this is a kris which was , as A.G. Maisey writes, a heavily modified kris, by someone outside the Indonesian culture (and not only the Balinese).

The setting of the hilt with screws is absolutely incredible and the warangka was certainly reshaped after some major damage.

So all an all, a conversation piece.

Heat gun may free the hilt but then, what are you going to do? Are you going to change all the parts of this kris that are incongruous?

If you are not , then you may as well leave it as it is, and if you are going to replace the hilt, the gandar en warangka, the paint of the sogokan would be the last of your concerns (let alone the fact hat if the blade would be stained they would probably disappear in the process unless you use the brushing and tapping technique.

In my opinion you may leave it as it is af a Xenomorph ( just made this word up, as foreign form to the original culture) kris . Enjoy it for what it is

Having taken a look to your previous posts I couldn't help to notice you apparent preference for things that are best defined as oddballs , which is a criterium for collecting in its own right.

Sajen · 24th March 2024, 05:38 PM

Hello Rob,

Like the others I've never seen something similar. The "wrongko" is reshaped in my opinion, can you show pics from that area? But it seems that this was done very long ago. The handle is unusual too and the orange paint in the sogokan is unusual indeed.
I personally wouldn't change anything by this keris and would keep it like this as a curiosity.

Regards,
Detlef

David · 24th March 2024, 05:47 PM

I don't really have much to add here and i am basically in agreement with Alan Milandro and Detlef.
The hilt is indeed out-of-culture, but i'm not sure it is a Western design. Something about it (perhaps that mother of pearl inlays) leads me to think of the Philippines as a a possible origin. I can't place the blade, but agree that it probably Balinese.
I would leave this odd ensemble as is also.

Sajen · 24th March 2024, 05:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

I can't place the blade, but agree that it os not Balinese.
I would leave this odd ensemble as is also.

Hello David,

To my eyes the blade looks Balinese/Lombok.

Regards,
Detlef

David · 24th March 2024, 07:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sajen

Hello David,

To my eyes the blade looks Balinese/Lombok.

Regards,
Detlef

Sorry, that was a typing error. As you may have noted, i was trying to agree with the consensus, not disagree. LOL! Not sure why i stuck that "not" in there. But yes, possibly Lombok also. Hard to say.
I will adjust my post. Thanks for pointing out may error.

Sajen · 24th March 2024, 08:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Sorry, that was a typing error. As you may have noted, i was trying to agree with the consensus, not disagree. LOL! Not sure why i stuck that "not" in there. But yes, possibly Lombok also. Hard to say.
I will adjust my post. Thanks for pointing out may error.

Hi David,

I was guessing like that and was jarred by your post!

Regards,
Detlef

Sajen · 24th March 2024, 09:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

The orange in the sogokan I feel was probably originally red, so with red + black + the symbolism of Siwa carried by the sogokan, we have the trimurti:- Siwa-Brahma-Wisnu. This would be a part of the out-of-culture work, it would not have been done in Bali, but could have been added by a person with some understanding of socio-religious mores in Bali.

Opinion only, I have never seen anything like this previously.

Hello Alan,

Why should someone with a deep knowledge in Balinese Hinduism come to the idea to paint the sogokan red? I've read, that's your opinion only!

The scabbard is reshaped when I am not wrong but it looks to my eyes very well patinated so I guess it was done in the culture. In my opinion there is a good possibility that all modifications could originate in Bali or Lombok.
Also opinion only!

Regards,
Detlef

David · 24th March 2024, 10:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sajen

In my opinion there is a good possibility that all modifications could originate in Bali or Lombok.
Also opinion only!

I don't know about the hilt. I really can't see anything Balinese in that. It seems very well made though. But i have never seen mother of pearl and nail decorations like that on Balinese or Lombok hilts. It puts me a little in mind of this type of decorations from recent Luzon knives, though perhaps a bit classier.

A. G. Maisey · 25th March 2024, 12:38 AM

Detlef, my phrasing was:-

"--- some understanding of socio-religious mores in Bali. ---"

I did not say, nor think, that the person who applied the red paint might have had a deep knowledge of Bali-Hindu religion.

However, if we look at the possible intended symbolism that could be attached to the paint job & its placement, what we have is this:-

sogokan> lingga> Siwa

red> Brahma

black> Wisnu

and there we have the Trimurti.

Whoever wielded the paint brush could very probably have had sufficient understanding to think that he was doing something in tune with Balinese mores.

In respect of these modifications being carried out in either Bali or in Lombok, in my opinion that is a total impossibility.

In Bali & Lombok the keris is a clearly defined item of dress, it MUST comply with certain specific standards, this keris under discussion is totally outside of the required parameters, not only that, but the hilt in particular is quite ludicrous in an indigenous context.

As others commented, for a collector outside of the relevant societies, this keris as presented is quite collectable, but for wear in Bali or Lombok?

I rather think not.

Sajen · 27th March 2024, 08:21 AM

Hello Alan,

I just was going with the well patinated reshaped scabbard. Such a patination doesn't happen in a short time.

Regards,
Detlef

A. G. Maisey · 27th March 2024, 11:40 AM

I agree Detlef, the scabbard has some age, but that is not really relevant.

That scabbard could have moved to anywhere at any time, & if it had been damaged in Bali to the point where it could not have been worn, it would have been replaced, not cobbled up into some outlandish shape that fits nowhere.

At the end of the day we have what I think is probably a pretty nice blade that drifted away from its place of creation & somehow, in someway, got itself dressed up in secondhand clothes from a Salvation Army Store --- so to speak.

These outlandish clothes have covered its nakedness, so its not going to get itself arrested for indecent exposure, but dressed as it is, it really doesn't fit into any decent society.

Seems everybody wants to leave it as it is, maybe because as it is, it is really quite amusing, but if it were mine I'd burn the stuff out of the Salvation Army Store & give it clothes that would not embarrass it.

But then again, I do have a soft spot for the down and outers of this world.

RobT · 29th March 2024, 01:12 AM

Hi All,

Thanks to all for all the input.
When I first saw this piece, it was in the sheath and I thought to myself, what a small and slender Moro kris. Then I saw the blade and realized it was Balinese.
So, what we have here is a Bali blade that has been painted by someone with enough knowledge of Hindu religious belief to choose colors evocative of Siva but without enough knowledge of Balinese culture to know that his paint job was inappropriate. On top of that, we have a hilt from goodness knows where and perhaps made from variously sourced parts but with a selut and tang hole that will fit an Indonesian keris. There’s one thing I would be willing to bet. If the hilt was added in the Southern Philippines, it wasn’t by the same guy that did the painting (unless the colors were chosen for some other and non-Hindu reason). Finally, we have what appears to be a sarong iras with a very badly damaged wranka that somebody thought enough of to modify and then add an inline border to the back side. I would love to see a picture of what the wranka looked like originally because, even with parts missing, it’s bigger than any Balinese wranka I have ever seen. Because it’s so big, I could see someone in the Southern Philippines wishing to repair and keep it. I can see the fabric wrap around the gandar as having been added in the Philippines also.
I am partially leaning toward A. G. Maisey’s advice. I think that someday an appropriate hilt and uwer would be nice but I think I will keep the sheath as is. When I eventually use a heat gun to remove the hilt (or at very least turn it to face properly), I will wrap the blade in a wet towel in an effort to preserve the paint. I know that the things chosen to keep and chosen to change are rather skewed (especially when viewed from the prospective of the original culture) but that’s what I’m thinking I may do someday. I’m in no hurry.

Sincerely,
RobT

24th March 2024, 05:47 PM	#4
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,047	I don't really have much to add here and i am basically in agreement with Alan Milandro and Detlef. The hilt is indeed out-of-culture, but i'm not sure it is a Western design. Something about it (perhaps that mother of pearl inlays) leads me to think of the Philippines as a a possible origin. I can't place the blade, but agree that it probably Balinese. I would leave this odd ensemble as is also. Last edited by David; 24th March 2024 at 07:22 PM. Reason: typing error

29th March 2024, 01:12 AM	#13
RobT Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 456	Thanks & Plans Hi All, Thanks to all for all the input. When I first saw this piece, it was in the sheath and I thought to myself, what a small and slender Moro kris. Then I saw the blade and realized it was Balinese. So, what we have here is a Bali blade that has been painted by someone with enough knowledge of Hindu religious belief to choose colors evocative of Siva but without enough knowledge of Balinese culture to know that his paint job was inappropriate. On top of that, we have a hilt from goodness knows where and perhaps made from variously sourced parts but with a selut and tang hole that will fit an Indonesian keris. There’s one thing I would be willing to bet. If the hilt was added in the Southern Philippines, it wasn’t by the same guy that did the painting (unless the colors were chosen for some other and non-Hindu reason). Finally, we have what appears to be a sarong iras with a very badly damaged wranka that somebody thought enough of to modify and then add an inline border to the back side. I would love to see a picture of what the wranka looked like originally because, even with parts missing, it’s bigger than any Balinese wranka I have ever seen. Because it’s so big, I could see someone in the Southern Philippines wishing to repair and keep it. I can see the fabric wrap around the gandar as having been added in the Philippines also. I am partially leaning toward A. G. Maisey’s advice. I think that someday an appropriate hilt and uwer would be nice but I think I will keep the sheath as is. When I eventually use a heat gun to remove the hilt (or at very least turn it to face properly), I will wrap the blade in a wet towel in an effort to preserve the paint. I know that the things chosen to keep and chosen to change are rather skewed (especially when viewed from the prospective of the original culture) but that’s what I’m thinking I may do someday. I’m in no hurry. Sincerely, RobT

23rd March 2024, 08:43 PM	#1
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,738	I feel that I am looking at an out-of-society reconstruction here. The blade does appear to be Bali, the visible part of the wrongko could possibly have been produced by reshaping a damaged original. The craftsmanship of the hilt is not Balinese, Javanese, nor of any other SE Asian society that I can readily identify. The orange in the sogokan I feel was probably originally red, so with red + black + the symbolism of Siwa carried by the sogokan, we have the trimurti:- Siwa-Brahma-Wisnu. This would be a part of the out-of-culture work, it would not have been done in Bali, but could have been added by a person with some understanding of socio-religious mores in Bali. Opinion only, I have never seen anything like this previously.

24th March 2024, 10:08 AM	#2
milandro Member Join Date: Jan 2022 Location: Netherlands Posts: 422	incredibly strange , although I cannot claim any in depth knowledge , my gut feeling is that this is a kris which was , as A.G. Maisey writes, a heavily modified kris, by someone outside the Indonesian culture (and not only the Balinese). The setting of the hilt with screws is absolutely incredible and the warangka was certainly reshaped after some major damage. So all an all, a conversation piece. Heat gun may free the hilt but then, what are you going to do? Are you going to change all the parts of this kris that are incongruous? If you are not , then you may as well leave it as it is, and if you are going to replace the hilt, the gandar en warangka, the paint of the sogokan would be the last of your concerns (let alone the fact hat if the blade would be stained they would probably disappear in the process unless you use the brushing and tapping technique. In my opinion you may leave it as it is af a Xenomorph ( just made this word up, as foreign form to the original culture) kris . Enjoy it for what it is Having taken a look to your previous posts I couldn't help to notice you apparent preference for things that are best defined as oddballs , which is a criterium for collecting in its own right.

24th March 2024, 05:38 PM	#3
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,572	Hello Rob, Like the others I've never seen something similar. The "wrongko" is reshaped in my opinion, can you show pics from that area? But it seems that this was done very long ago. The handle is unusual too and the orange paint in the sogokan is unusual indeed. I personally wouldn't change anything by this keris and would keep it like this as a curiosity. Regards, Detlef

25th March 2024, 12:38 AM	#10
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,738	Detlef, my phrasing was:- "--- some understanding of socio-religious mores in Bali. ---" I did not say, nor think, that the person who applied the red paint might have had a deep knowledge of Bali-Hindu religion. However, if we look at the possible intended symbolism that could be attached to the paint job & its placement, what we have is this:- sogokan> lingga> Siwa red> Brahma black> Wisnu and there we have the Trimurti. Whoever wielded the paint brush could very probably have had sufficient understanding to think that he was doing something in tune with Balinese mores. In respect of these modifications being carried out in either Bali or in Lombok, in my opinion that is a total impossibility. In Bali & Lombok the keris is a clearly defined item of dress, it MUST comply with certain specific standards, this keris under discussion is totally outside of the required parameters, not only that, but the hilt in particular is quite ludicrous in an indigenous context. As others commented, for a collector outside of the relevant societies, this keris as presented is quite collectable, but for wear in Bali or Lombok? I rather think not.

27th March 2024, 08:21 AM	#11
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,572	Hello Alan, I just was going with the well patinated reshaped scabbard. Such a patination doesn't happen in a short time. Regards, Detlef

27th March 2024, 11:40 AM	#12
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,738	I agree Detlef, the scabbard has some age, but that is not really relevant. That scabbard could have moved to anywhere at any time, & if it had been damaged in Bali to the point where it could not have been worn, it would have been replaced, not cobbled up into some outlandish shape that fits nowhere. At the end of the day we have what I think is probably a pretty nice blade that drifted away from its place of creation & somehow, in someway, got itself dressed up in secondhand clothes from a Salvation Army Store --- so to speak. These outlandish clothes have covered its nakedness, so its not going to get itself arrested for indecent exposure, but dressed as it is, it really doesn't fit into any decent society. Seems everybody wants to leave it as it is, maybe because as it is, it is really quite amusing, but if it were mine I'd burn the stuff out of the Salvation Army Store & give it clothes that would not embarrass it. But then again, I do have a soft spot for the down and outers of this world.