Interesting implement

Mercenary · 23rd February 2017, 02:36 PM

In the MET Museum there is an interesting implement. I found it very interesting by its construction:
http://www.metmuseum.org/art/collect...p=20&pos=2

mariusgmioc · 23rd February 2017, 03:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mercenary

In the MET Museum there is an interesting implement. I found it very interesting by its construction:
http://www.metmuseum.org/art/collect...p=20&pos=2

I would say it is a Katar, but without the extending armguards. While quite rare, katars missing the extending armguards are definitely not unheard of.

I am surprised the "experts" at the Met didn't realise what it is. Or maybe I am not that surprised...

I hope Jens sees this thread and gives us more information on this rather unusual Katar.

Miguel · 23rd February 2017, 04:15 PM

It has the katar form but if it is a katar I would think it would cause the user some damage to the palm unless it is held in a different way than normal in which case I cannot see it being that effective. Having said that I don't know what else it could be. Jens has and still is, I believe, researching the katar and may be able to shed some light on whether or not the item in question is a katar.
Miguel

Kubur · 23rd February 2017, 04:27 PM

if i remember these are sindhi kattars
sometimes with engravings on the blade, a man with a sun
and also the birds on the handle...

Kubur · 23rd February 2017, 04:34 PM

KATAR JAMADHAR is what i have in mind...

Jens Nordlunde · 23rd February 2017, 09:36 PM

Miguel, you are right I am researching the katar as best I can, and I have four researches going at the moment, so I dont tthink I should take up more.

I can not say, from the picture, if this is a garsoe katar or not, but Miguel's comment is very good.
Its really a very odd thing.

Jens Nordlunde · 23rd February 2017, 03:59 PM

I cant tell you what it is, it looks like a 'wounded' katar, but if you would use this one as a katar you would get the two peacocks pressed into your hand, which would not be very plessant.

Jens Nordlunde · 24th February 2017, 09:35 PM

Yes it could have been made for religious use, but even for that I find the blade is very crude - but who knows?
And if, why the missing side guards??

Jim McDougall · 25th February 2017, 01:26 AM

I think it is entirely an interpretive weapon, that is, loosely devised to have resemblance to existing arms but not requiring the quality nor the key features normally emplaced for protective or combative use.
As Ian has noted, this was an acquisition which must have had pertinence for the museum to have used benefactors funds to purchase.

This does not seem at all to be a 'souvenier' which would have been more produced to look like the weapons known in India, while this is as noted, not even trying to imitate such arms faithfully.

Elgood does a great job of describing the kinds of rituals and ceremonial uses of weaponry in temples and with religious groups of key Faiths in South India. Reading there on more of these complexities would give better understanding of this type of 'weapons'.

Berkley · 25th February 2017, 04:31 AM

I’ll suggest an alternative hypothesis, taking into account some clues related to the original Met exhibit.
The provenance shows the “implement” was obtained some 35 years ago from a named individual. Google search indicates that the named individual is possibly Iranian, and was the president of an oriental carpet company at about the time of the Met’s acquisition.
Although we are all programmed to see such an implement as a weapon, we have agreed that its design is very unsuitable for that purpose. Given its provenance, is it unreasonable to think of it as an elegant tool for use in trimming or shaping sumptuous knotted rugs?
Take another look at what seems to me to be a much more comfortable and useful approach to using the “implement”:

Miguel · 25th February 2017, 03:51 PM

Most interesting hypothesise which I would go along with as it ticks the boxes. The peacock was also a symbol in Persia. Well done Holmes.
Miguel

Jim McDougall · 25th February 2017, 04:16 PM

I agree with Miguel.
Berkeley, a most compelling theory, and nice research to bring in the Persian rug making angle! I would never have thought of this as such an implement, but this makes perfect sense.

mariusgmioc · 25th February 2017, 07:30 PM

[QUOTE=Berkley]I’ll suggest an alternative hypothesis, taking into account some clues related to the original Met exhibit.
Given its provenance, is it unreasonable to think of it as an elegant tool for use in trimming or shaping sumptuous knotted rugs?
Take another look at what seems to me to be a much more comfortable and useful approach to using the “implement”:

Interesting hypothesis, but I have visited a few carpet workshops that use ancient tools and technique and didn't see anything like this.

Besides, you can google "tools used in carpet making" and won't get anything that looks alike.

Jim McDougall · 25th February 2017, 10:57 PM

Well it sounded like a plausible idea, and I am always open to any thoughts especially when reasonably deduced and supporting factors presented.
On the other hand, looking at what might have been the purpose, and noting no sharpened edges etc. the thinking moves back to votive item as originally proposed seems better.

I do very much like these kinds of exchanges where everyone presents ideas and views without friction and keeping open minds. This way we can all evaluate evidence and ideas to form opinions.

23rd February 2017, 02:36 PM	#1
Mercenary Member Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: Moscow, Russia Posts: 421	Interesting implement In the MET Museum there is an interesting implement. I found it very interesting by its construction: http://www.metmuseum.org/art/collect...p=20&pos=2 Attached Images

23rd February 2017, 04:34 PM	#5
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	KATAR JAMADHAR is what i have in mind... Attached Images

23rd February 2017, 03:59 PM	#7
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,713	I cant tell you what it is, it looks like a 'wounded' katar, but if you would use this one as a katar you would get the two peacocks pressed into your hand, which would not be very plessant. Attached Images

23rd February 2017, 04:15 PM	#3
Miguel Member Join Date: Jun 2015 Posts: 584	It has the katar form but if it is a katar I would think it would cause the user some damage to the palm unless it is held in a different way than normal in which case I cannot see it being that effective. Having said that I don't know what else it could be. Jens has and still is, I believe, researching the katar and may be able to shed some light on whether or not the item in question is a katar. Miguel

23rd February 2017, 04:27 PM	#4
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	if i remember these are sindhi kattars sometimes with engravings on the blade, a man with a sun and also the birds on the handle...

23rd February 2017, 09:36 PM	#6
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,713	Miguel, you are right I am researching the katar as best I can, and I have four researches going at the moment, so I dont tthink I should take up more. I can not say, from the picture, if this is a garsoe katar or not, but Miguel's comment is very good. Its really a very odd thing.

24th February 2017, 09:35 PM	#8
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,713	Yes it could have been made for religious use, but even for that I find the blade is very crude - but who knows? And if, why the missing side guards??

25th February 2017, 01:26 AM	#9
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,746	I think it is entirely an interpretive weapon, that is, loosely devised to have resemblance to existing arms but not requiring the quality nor the key features normally emplaced for protective or combative use. As Ian has noted, this was an acquisition which must have had pertinence for the museum to have used benefactors funds to purchase. This does not seem at all to be a 'souvenier' which would have been more produced to look like the weapons known in India, while this is as noted, not even trying to imitate such arms faithfully. Elgood does a great job of describing the kinds of rituals and ceremonial uses of weaponry in temples and with religious groups of key Faiths in South India. Reading there on more of these complexities would give better understanding of this type of 'weapons'.

25th February 2017, 04:31 AM	#10
Berkley Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Austin, Texas USA Posts: 257	I’ll suggest an alternative hypothesis, taking into account some clues related to the original Met exhibit. The provenance shows the “implement” was obtained some 35 years ago from a named individual. Google search indicates that the named individual is possibly Iranian, and was the president of an oriental carpet company at about the time of the Met’s acquisition. Although we are all programmed to see such an implement as a weapon, we have agreed that its design is very unsuitable for that purpose. Given its provenance, is it unreasonable to think of it as an elegant tool for use in trimming or shaping sumptuous knotted rugs? Take another look at what seems to me to be a much more comfortable and useful approach to using the “implement”:

25th February 2017, 03:51 PM	#11
Miguel Member Join Date: Jun 2015 Posts: 584	Most interesting hypothesise which I would go along with as it ticks the boxes. The peacock was also a symbol in Persia. Well done Holmes. Miguel

25th February 2017, 04:16 PM	#12
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,746	I agree with Miguel. Berkeley, a most compelling theory, and nice research to bring in the Persian rug making angle! I would never have thought of this as such an implement, but this makes perfect sense.

25th February 2017, 07:30 PM	#13
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,871	[QUOTE=Berkley]I’ll suggest an alternative hypothesis, taking into account some clues related to the original Met exhibit. Given its provenance, is it unreasonable to think of it as an elegant tool for use in trimming or shaping sumptuous knotted rugs? Take another look at what seems to me to be a much more comfortable and useful approach to using the “implement”: Interesting hypothesis, but I have visited a few carpet workshops that use ancient tools and technique and didn't see anything like this. Besides, you can google "tools used in carpet making" and won't get anything that looks alike.

25th February 2017, 10:57 PM	#14
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,746	Well it sounded like a plausible idea, and I am always open to any thoughts especially when reasonably deduced and supporting factors presented. On the other hand, looking at what might have been the purpose, and noting no sharpened edges etc. the thinking moves back to votive item as originally proposed seems better. I do very much like these kinds of exchanges where everyone presents ideas and views without friction and keeping open minds. This way we can all evaluate evidence and ideas to form opinions.