Hunting sword - Hirschfanger for comments

[Akanthus]

Originally Posted by fernando

So, save us from the details !

Yes Fernado ,would be better.But sadly most of the things discussed here in the forum weren't made to delight todays collectors...

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Akanthus

Yes Fernado ,would be better.But sadly most of the things discussed here in the forum weren't made to delight todays collectors...

Discussing antique weapons is like discussing sex; doesn't have to be explicit .

[Akanthus]

Originally Posted by fernando

Discussing antique weapons is like discussing sex; doesn't have to be explicit .

" Sin and shame do not remain hidden." Faust I ,a tragedy.J.W. Goethe

[Interested Party]

Akanthus thank you for this description. It was helpful for understanding of what I am seeing. I live in an area where many people still rely on meat obtained from hunting (it is a common vacation or rather "staycation" for many people in the fall) or meat from their own cattle. It is interesting to see how the sport of hunting changes through the years and how it relates to class. In western society I wonder if now the elite gentry doesn't hunt as much, and the "sport" of the hunt is the province of the middle class and people who live in rural areas. Though I still have a few friends who make a living as hunting guides.

A botched shot or trying to hunt using the old methods are rarely pretty. The shape of the original blade grind and the angle that a blade is sharped at effect this process to an amazing degree. All razor edges are not created equally. A flat grind or a very gradual I call it Japanese style of edge (a very gentle channel grind) make things progress much more smoothly. Such practices as described in earlier posts also help us understand human interaction of the period as well, I believe. I have to wonder if such rituals didn't help harden the participants up to enable them to do what they must to keep their wealth and privilege through borderline sociopathic tendencies. As well as some echo to blood sacrifice rites that are not as remote as we would like to think. Dark thought I know, but what it takes to keep meat on the table is puzzling and removed in industrialized societies. Not to mention that many readers are beginning the celebration of what was supposed to be the last blood sacrifice. Anyway, I digress. That is a beautiful blade. The descendants of that stag motif lived into the late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries if my memory serves me. Maybe even into the present with some elite manufacturers of firearms. I possibly had some relevant pictures if I can find them. The angle of the stag's neck fascinates me. At once it seems to show fleet movement and resemble the angle of repose of a fresh kill while it still in the flaccid, almost gelatine state just after circulation fails. Is the handle of this hanger porcelain? I had thought tortoise shell at a glance.

I apologize for any discomfort given. Sometimes I have trouble not viewing the world and our subject matter wholistically. I wish everyone a happy Holliday season.

-IP

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Interested Party

Is the handle of this hanger porcelain? I had thought tortoise shell at a glance....

My friend thinks it has to do with some horn material; maybe deer antler !

[Jim McDougall]

From Bruno Thomas & Ortwin Gamber, "Jahrbuch des Kunsthitorischen Museums in Wien 1937 to 1955". as cited in
"imperial Austria: Treasures of Art, Arms and Armor from the State of Styria"
Musueum of Fine Arts, Houston, 1992:

"...they convincingly explained that rather than being mere accessories, weapons are themselves artistic creations that reflect larger stylistic tendancies of a period".

The nobility and gentry of Europe, much as characteristic of most civilized societies, were well aware of fashion, style and curiosities, and the 'hunt' was more of a 'field exercise' of court assembly and event.

There was of course notable competition among these figures who eagerly sought to impress others and themselves with unique, sometimes dramatic, elements reflecting these, of course on their weapons.

Blackmore (op. cit. 1971, p.36-38) notes, '...towards the end of the 17th c. TORTOISE SHELL obtained from the hawkesbill turtle native to Asian tropical waters began to be imported into Europe. The chief advantage of this malleable material was the ease with which it could be shaped, molded, impressed or inlaid with decoration".

However it goes on to describe just how rarely this material was used on weapons, but usually more common on accessories such as snuff boxes and sundry items. .......BUT, there were a few weapons in which it was used.

Porcelain seems to have produced primarily in the Chantilly and St. Cloud factories in France.

The influences of the Orient were as noted, gaining popularity in Europe with the Dutch East India Co. being a primary source. The gold and silver alloy called 'shakudo' while being a Japanese product was originally thought to be associated with the style termed 'Tonquinese' . Tonquin , Annam was a province in now Viet Nam under Chinese control and later French colonial.
The shakudo was apparently produced for the VOC at their factory in Deshima Japan, an island off the mainland.

European hilt makers seem to have actually brought in Chinese artisans for produce hilts and mounts for many of the eagerly desired 'exotic' weapons in the 18th c.

While obviously a Chinese Qing era saber, this example of much earlier blade remounted, probably diplomatically or presentation oriented, using tortoise shell material, probably first half 19th c.

[kai]

My friend thinks it has to do with some horn material; maybe deer antler !

Well, antler is bone - not any horn material...

This criss-cross pattern is not tortoise shell IMHO. To me, this looks like a paint job (there was a special technique being utilized - its name eludes me right now): The fading of the dark pattern along the facet ridges is the major hint (worn through).

Close-ups (in focus) would be good!

Regards,
Kai

[fernando]

Originally Posted by kai

... Well, antler is bone - not any horn material...

So sorry for the idiomatic expression ?

" Antler = each of the branched 'horns' on the head of an adult deer (typically a male one), which are made of bone and are grown and cast annually "

Originally Posted by kai

... The criss-cross pattern is not tortoise shell IMHO...

Visibly not !

Originally Posted by kai

... To me, this looks like a paint job (there was a special technique being utilized - its name eludes me right now): The fading of the dark pattern along the facet ridges is the major hint (worn through)...

Maybe done with some kind of acid (?) that keeps it resitant to wearing for a long period ...

Originally Posted by kai

Close-ups (in focus) would be good!..

I will ask for those; but this person only depends on his cell phone camera !

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by fernando

Discussing antique weapons is like discussing sex; doesn't have to be explicit .

VERY well said Fernando!!!! and I think you have eloquently placed a quote there quite worthy to parallel of the profound philosophy of Goethe.

While I always appreciate responses and elucidation to subject matter being discussed, I do not think that detailed elaboration is necessary to describe the obvious manner in which an edged weapon is used.

To respond to the 'interesting' view stated, pertaining to the things 'discussed' here on this forum, the reference to 'delight of 'todays' collectors, is poignantly taken. The objectives here have always been, since the inception of this forum, to further our understanding of the arms and armor through historic times by discussion and examination of actual examples.
Following the theme intended in this response, I will withhold my sentiments toward 'the delights of 'todays' collectors.

I will say that my personal odyssey in the study of swords began a few years ago, actually in the early 60s as a youngster obsessed with history, in particular the weapons used in early movies of course. Since then I have studied voraciously, and indeed even collected as I could.

In my study of these weapons, I must admit that I have never found the grim reality of the actual use of them necessary in looking into their character from an artistic point of view. My focus has always been on the character of the design, elements, decoration, markings and inscriptions as obviously reflective of the history imbued in each example.

Returning to my earlier post noting that 'hunting hangers', while often highly decorated and embellished, indeed were often 'PUT TO HARD USAGE' (Blackmore, 1971, p.19).

While I appreciate the fact that this usage would of course include 'the kill', OBVIOUSLY....of course the noble hunter would carry this out! Why else would he participate in the hunt?


Blackmore notes (p.31) that:
"...few of the hunting swords worn with such apparel can ever have been intended for action, although their owners made certain that they lacked nothing in splendor for the occasion".

Further, noting Bashford Dean (his 1929 catalog) dismissed them as "..degenerate court swords small enough to be conveniently carried in the forest, to be used on very rare occasions to defend the wearer (very ineffectively) from enraged boar or stag, daintily to bleed the game but never to function in butchery".

Here I would point out that Howard Blackmore in this profoundly thorough book on hunting weapons, nor Bashford Dean in his venerable catalog of 1929 (a treasure!) , neither resort to garish or gory details in these, the most effective studies of these weapons.

[fernando]

Thank you for your input, Jim. As i see it, a rather eloquent approach !