PAKARANG KASOENDAN (Weapons of the Soenda)

Amuk Murugul · 1st February 2020, 09:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jagabuwana

Sampurasun!

Are these part of your private collection or can they be viewed publicly?

I'm very intrigued by no. 3 - I've not seen this kind of handle before. Might you have other examples?

Also, why do you opt to spell using Dutch orthography? Is this part of the written form of "basa jero" that you've referenced previously?

Rampes …..

I always try to post examples from my family collection; thus not for ’public viewing'.

I am not sure what you mean.
The handle on '#1/3.’ is just a bajang handle, of which there are several in the collection(it’s only out-of-focus).
‘#3’ is just a staghorn handle.

I choose the spelling system which best suits my needs. It gives uniformity and allows ‘freedom of access and movement’ within the Malajoe archipelago.

Tjag.

David · 2nd February 2020, 04:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amuk Murugul

I choose the spelling system which best suits my needs. It gives uniformity and allows ‘freedom of access and movement’ within the Malajoe archipelago.

Amuk, i certainly respect your right to use "the spelling system which best suits <your> needs". That said, i really must point out that just about every time you do post with these anachronistic spellings they cause confusion and questions from our members. So it should be obvious to you at this point that what best suits your own needs only confuses a large part of our membership. In the past you have acknowledged this and i even remember you saying at one point that you would post in the more modern and understandable form. I guess you have dismissed that idea at this point. I am not telling you that you cannot continue using these spellings, but i do what you to clearly understand that it is often problematic for others when you do.

A. G. Maisey · 2nd February 2020, 08:41 PM

Actually David, I rather enjoy Amuk's archaic and sometimes puzzling spellings. They refresh my memories and take me back to when I first began to learn Bahasa Indonesia. Yeah, I know, I'm not everybody else, but surely we can tolerate his convoluted spellings for the sake of his interesting photos?

When I began learning Bahasa Indonesia the old Dutch spelling was still being used, and my first dictionaries and text books were all the old spellings --- except for the Dutch "oe" instead of "u", that was changed in , I think, 1947, the other changes did not become official until 1972.

It is interesting to compare Indonesian romanisation and Malaysian romanisation. Sir Richard Winstead was responsible for the romanisation of Malay, and this first appeared in his Malay - English dictionary in 1908.

The old Dutch spelling system was in place from early in the 20th century, pre-1910, through to 1947, when it was replaced by the new National spelling system, I'm not sure, but I think this new system was called the "Republik" system. The old Dutch system had been invented by a gentleman with a name I cannot spell, it was something like van Ophuisen. Then in 1972 the present system that we use was introduced.

Interestingly, Malaysia did not exist until late in 1963, prior to that it had been Malaya, which of course was Melayu, because the Winstead spelling system was well and truly in place.

Actually, the term "Malay Archipelago" was an invention of Lord Alfred Wallace, he also called the same islands the "Indian Archipelago". Its a bit difficult to understand how the term "Malajoe archipelago" could ever have existed. Maybe "Kepuluan Malayoe" or "Kepuluan Malaju" or even "Kepuluan Melajoe", but then we have the problem of either Dutch or Indonesian nationalists ceding naming rights of Dutch or Indonesian territory to those difficult Malays, then using an English language term, expressed with Dutch spelling. It never happened.

For the Dutch, the islands that we now think of as "Indonesia" were known as "Nederland Indie", for indigenous people under Dutch overlordship these islands were "Hindia Belanda" or "Hindi Londo", after Merdeka, the generally used term in the new nation of Indonesia was "Nusantara" a term that was in use in Old Javanese.

That's what I mean about Amuk's sometimes puzzling spellings, they get confused and mixed, but truly I do enjoy the exercise of working out what he means, I think we should be tolerant and accept what he is prepared to give.

His pictures are great.

David · 2nd February 2020, 10:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

I think we should be tolerant and accept what he is prepared to give.

"I am not telling you that you cannot continue using these spellings..."

I believe i was already being tolerant Alan.

And the best part of these confusing spellings is when you follow them with wonderful historical tidbits like what you have just posted. Interesting stuff!
As for Amuk's pictures, yes, please keep them coming Amuk. Your families collection is fabulous!

A. G. Maisey · 2nd February 2020, 10:59 PM

Yes David, I was simply re-enforcing your already obvious tolerance.

Some people do tend to be less tolerant than both you & I.

jagabuwana · 5th February 2020, 01:49 AM

Thank you very much, hatur nuhun Tjag for clarifying this for me.

Mickey the Finn · 19th February 2020, 12:55 PM

For what it's worth, for myself, the old-style spellings aren't really all that bothersome. I have only a passing familiarity with what I think of as "Dutch phonetic spelling"; more like skating than walking or skiing, but I can get from A to B, though perhaps not quite as smoothly or quickly. On that note, a few years ago there was a corpus of quasi-professional "blue movies" available for view on a certain website. I recognized the language being spoken on these videos as Southern Scots or some thickly accented dialect of Northern English; I was able to "get the gist" of what was being said, though "in a glass, darkly", as it were. It was only through reading some of the viewer comments on the videos that I learned that the language being spoken was actually Dutch, and not Scots or English at all. After that, my comprehension suddenly dropped from "fair/middling" to "not the faintest, foggiest clue". Interesting learning experience it was, though.

2nd February 2020, 08:41 PM	#3
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,736	Actually David, I rather enjoy Amuk's archaic and sometimes puzzling spellings. They refresh my memories and take me back to when I first began to learn Bahasa Indonesia. Yeah, I know, I'm not everybody else, but surely we can tolerate his convoluted spellings for the sake of his interesting photos? When I began learning Bahasa Indonesia the old Dutch spelling was still being used, and my first dictionaries and text books were all the old spellings --- except for the Dutch "oe" instead of "u", that was changed in , I think, 1947, the other changes did not become official until 1972. It is interesting to compare Indonesian romanisation and Malaysian romanisation. Sir Richard Winstead was responsible for the romanisation of Malay, and this first appeared in his Malay - English dictionary in 1908. The old Dutch spelling system was in place from early in the 20th century, pre-1910, through to 1947, when it was replaced by the new National spelling system, I'm not sure, but I think this new system was called the "Republik" system. The old Dutch system had been invented by a gentleman with a name I cannot spell, it was something like van Ophuisen. Then in 1972 the present system that we use was introduced. Interestingly, Malaysia did not exist until late in 1963, prior to that it had been Malaya, which of course was Melayu, because the Winstead spelling system was well and truly in place. Actually, the term "Malay Archipelago" was an invention of Lord Alfred Wallace, he also called the same islands the "Indian Archipelago". Its a bit difficult to understand how the term "Malajoe archipelago" could ever have existed. Maybe "Kepuluan Malayoe" or "Kepuluan Malaju" or even "Kepuluan Melajoe", but then we have the problem of either Dutch or Indonesian nationalists ceding naming rights of Dutch or Indonesian territory to those difficult Malays, then using an English language term, expressed with Dutch spelling. It never happened. For the Dutch, the islands that we now think of as "Indonesia" were known as "Nederland Indie", for indigenous people under Dutch overlordship these islands were "Hindia Belanda" or "Hindi Londo", after Merdeka, the generally used term in the new nation of Indonesia was "Nusantara" a term that was in use in Old Javanese. That's what I mean about Amuk's sometimes puzzling spellings, they get confused and mixed, but truly I do enjoy the exercise of working out what he means, I think we should be tolerant and accept what he is prepared to give. His pictures are great. Last edited by A. G. Maisey; 2nd February 2020 at 11:04 PM.

2nd February 2020, 10:59 PM	#5
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,736	Yes David, I was simply re-enforcing your already obvious tolerance. Some people do tend to be less tolerant than both you & I.

5th February 2020, 01:49 AM	#6
jagabuwana Member Join Date: Jan 2018 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 277	Thank you very much, hatur nuhun Tjag for clarifying this for me.

19th February 2020, 12:55 PM	#7
Mickey the Finn Member Join Date: Dec 2017 Posts: 90	For what it's worth, for myself, the old-style spellings aren't really all that bothersome. I have only a passing familiarity with what I think of as "Dutch phonetic spelling"; more like skating than walking or skiing, but I can get from A to B, though perhaps not quite as smoothly or quickly. On that note, a few years ago there was a corpus of quasi-professional "blue movies" available for view on a certain website. I recognized the language being spoken on these videos as Southern Scots or some thickly accented dialect of Northern English; I was able to "get the gist" of what was being said, though "in a glass, darkly", as it were. It was only through reading some of the viewer comments on the videos that I learned that the language being spoken was actually Dutch, and not Scots or English at all. After that, my comprehension suddenly dropped from "fair/middling" to "not the faintest, foggiest clue". Interesting learning experience it was, though.