Khevsur sabre for comments

dat_man · 17th June 2021, 08:12 PM

This is an eastern georgian saber not a khevsur one, khevsur swords have brass fittings on the hilt and the scabbard sometimes silver on fancier ones, and what you got is not like that, it is a typical eastern georgian saber.

Here is some photos of eastern Georgians with sabers

Jim McDougall · 18th June 2021, 06:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dat_man

This is an eastern georgian saber not a khevsur one, khevsur swords have brass fittings on the hilt and the scabbard sometimes silver on fancier ones, and what you got is not like that, it is a typical eastern georgian saber.

Here is some photos of eastern Georgians with sabers

Hello Datman,
Welcome to the discussion! and I'm glad you joined us. I am intrigued by your assertion, to say the least, and anxious to hear more on what groups comprise East Georgians, and what distinguishes their sabers as opposed to Khevsur.
Also interested on the Khevsur stipulations on the use of brass fittings. It sounds as if you have a great deal of experience with these rather esoteric weapons, and must be familiar with Kirill Rivkin's excellent book, "Arms and Armor of Caucusus".

dat_man · 19th June 2021, 05:09 PM

Thank you Jim for the welcome, and I wouldn't consider myself that experienced.

When talking about Georgians it is good to know as much as possible about the ethnic groups because it can be very useful, at least that is my opinion.

About khevsurs I am pretty sure you are in common with the weapons they carry, they got a khmali "sword" a shield a dashna "short sword" and a dagger, we can add to those the armour and the ursa knife and in earlier times spears (I only saw one photo of khevsur man with a spear all the other descriptions are old drawings), if we look at swords in the old photos of khevsur we will always see the brass fittings on the scabbards and the only photos I have seen that are tagged as khevsur but have a normal georgian saber tend to be photos of none khevsur models that are dressed in a way to make them look closer enough, for the dashna they have similar fittings except in the case of 20th century examples that have a D guard some of those doesn't have such fittings, but we need to remember at this time period there was a move of modernising the khevsur and we see them stop carrying swords and shields even daggers and just carry a dashna also we see changes in the way they are dressed and alot of their crafts starts to get lost, about the daggers their daggers don't have any special thing and they mostly are bought from tiblisi or dagistan, the only thing is that they kept using 4 fingers grips even through 3 fingers hilts were becoming common in most of the caucasus.

About the other Eastern georgian sabers share similar blades that we see on the khevsur examples but they also tend to have blades similar to shamshir blades or some other styles, for the hilts we either see persian style hilt with leather around the grip or like this ( http://www.caucasianarms.com/collect...shamshir-sword ) I don't know how to describe it properly but you can see the different shape of the grip and the guard.

We most of the time see them carried by nobility from Eastern Georgia and you would mostly see them wearing what they call kulazha instead of chokha.

About the photos on my earlier post those were tushins from tusheti region.

Here are some photos
1- a khevsur man with typical khevsur swords
2- khevsur man with a D guard dashna without the brass fittings as explained earlier, you can also see what looks like a Russian military saber
3- another example of such sabers
4- georgian noblemen with such saber
5- another georgian with similar saber

About that book I haven't had yet

I hope this is helpful and I will be happy to hear what you think and I will look if I have other photos that may be helpful here

Jim McDougall · 19th June 2021, 07:08 PM

Dat Man, thank you so much for what I can only describe as a resounding ! response! You are quite modest as obviously you are extremely experienced with these weapons and the peoples in these region.
My personal research on this these topics is from beginning in the 90s, and frankly the resources were dismal here in the west in those times aside from a few guys who had great inside contacts.

In recent years there has been a virtual renaissance on these Caucasian arms as reflected by the wonderful book by Kirill Rivkin (op.cit.).

In my early research I added the only Khevsur weapons I have, and at the time in discussions with Iaroslav Lebedynsky (whose book on Caucasian weapons in French was one of the only resources available in the 90s) he used the term 'pranguli' for these straight blade 'dueling' swords.

It seems more than reasonable that Georgian swords would have been among those used in Khevsuria as their contacts with Georgian regions and Daghestan were well established.

I would like to continue talking with you on these, and will try to get together some more specific questions. In the meantime I hope others here with interest and experience in these areas will step in. It is amazing when a discussion ensues in which this kind of knowledge and experience can be shared.

Thank you again, outstanding and very informative response and well explained.

All best regards
Jim

dat_man · 20th June 2021, 06:26 PM

I am happy that you found my response helpful jim, and I hope I can expand my knowledge and experience by learning from you too, and I will make sure to share what I know with you.

I am also interested to see what others can add to this topic.

17th June 2021, 08:12 PM	#1
dat_man Member Join Date: Jun 2021 Posts: 16	This is an eastern georgian saber not a khevsur one, khevsur swords have brass fittings on the hilt and the scabbard sometimes silver on fancier ones, and what you got is not like that, it is a typical eastern georgian saber. Here is some photos of eastern Georgians with sabers Attached Images

19th June 2021, 05:09 PM	#3
dat_man Member Join Date: Jun 2021 Posts: 16	Thank you Jim for the welcome, and I wouldn't consider myself that experienced. When talking about Georgians it is good to know as much as possible about the ethnic groups because it can be very useful, at least that is my opinion. About khevsurs I am pretty sure you are in common with the weapons they carry, they got a khmali "sword" a shield a dashna "short sword" and a dagger, we can add to those the armour and the ursa knife and in earlier times spears (I only saw one photo of khevsur man with a spear all the other descriptions are old drawings), if we look at swords in the old photos of khevsur we will always see the brass fittings on the scabbards and the only photos I have seen that are tagged as khevsur but have a normal georgian saber tend to be photos of none khevsur models that are dressed in a way to make them look closer enough, for the dashna they have similar fittings except in the case of 20th century examples that have a D guard some of those doesn't have such fittings, but we need to remember at this time period there was a move of modernising the khevsur and we see them stop carrying swords and shields even daggers and just carry a dashna also we see changes in the way they are dressed and alot of their crafts starts to get lost, about the daggers their daggers don't have any special thing and they mostly are bought from tiblisi or dagistan, the only thing is that they kept using 4 fingers grips even through 3 fingers hilts were becoming common in most of the caucasus. About the other Eastern georgian sabers share similar blades that we see on the khevsur examples but they also tend to have blades similar to shamshir blades or some other styles, for the hilts we either see persian style hilt with leather around the grip or like this ( http://www.caucasianarms.com/collect...shamshir-sword ) I don't know how to describe it properly but you can see the different shape of the grip and the guard. We most of the time see them carried by nobility from Eastern Georgia and you would mostly see them wearing what they call kulazha instead of chokha. About the photos on my earlier post those were tushins from tusheti region. Here are some photos 1- a khevsur man with typical khevsur swords 2- khevsur man with a D guard dashna without the brass fittings as explained earlier, you can also see what looks like a Russian military saber 3- another example of such sabers 4- georgian noblemen with such saber 5- another georgian with similar saber About that book I haven't had yet I hope this is helpful and I will be happy to hear what you think and I will look if I have other photos that may be helpful here Attached Images

19th June 2021, 07:08 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,785	Dat Man, thank you so much for what I can only describe as a resounding ! response! You are quite modest as obviously you are extremely experienced with these weapons and the peoples in these region. My personal research on this these topics is from beginning in the 90s, and frankly the resources were dismal here in the west in those times aside from a few guys who had great inside contacts. In recent years there has been a virtual renaissance on these Caucasian arms as reflected by the wonderful book by Kirill Rivkin (op.cit.). In my early research I added the only Khevsur weapons I have, and at the time in discussions with Iaroslav Lebedynsky (whose book on Caucasian weapons in French was one of the only resources available in the 90s) he used the term 'pranguli' for these straight blade 'dueling' swords. It seems more than reasonable that Georgian swords would have been among those used in Khevsuria as their contacts with Georgian regions and Daghestan were well established. I would like to continue talking with you on these, and will try to get together some more specific questions. In the meantime I hope others here with interest and experience in these areas will step in. It is amazing when a discussion ensues in which this kind of knowledge and experience can be shared. Thank you again, outstanding and very informative response and well explained. All best regards Jim

20th June 2021, 06:26 PM	#5
dat_man Member Join Date: Jun 2021 Posts: 16	I am happy that you found my response helpful jim, and I hope I can expand my knowledge and experience by learning from you too, and I will make sure to share what I know with you. I am also interested to see what others can add to this topic.