My "new" cup hilt sword for your kind comments

ulfberth · 26th May 2020, 03:54 PM

Congratulations Fernando !
it is not just another cup hilt of this genre , it is exceptionally huge and there are the fine engravings , yes I would have bought it to if I had the chance.

fernando · 26th May 2020, 03:58 PM

Thak you for the kind words, Dirk

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Gruawaesk · 26th May 2020, 04:31 PM

Stunning piece!

jezcott · 26th May 2020, 05:24 PM

A fine sword, an absolute beast. Great inscriptions and marks, which are always half the pleasure in researching and understanding the sword.

Jim McDougall · 26th May 2020, 06:45 PM

Fernando, you KNOW my weakness!!! cup hilts!
And with Dirk, I agree, this is a wonderful and most unusual example.

In the 18th century, Spain stubbornly held to its cup hilt traditions and Portugal of course also maintained their affinity for these fascinating hilts. Without more detailed research, I would think this is likely a colonial 'arming' version of the continued colonial versions of cup hilts from probably Brazilian context.

I have seen these heavy blades on various Spanish colonial swords of the 18th century it seems, and they are of course infantry officers weapons as I have understood. I am not sure of the Portuguese involvement in the Seven Years War in the Americas but it certainly seems possible this may have some connection there.

Thank you for the great pics, detailed description, and sharing a MOST unusual example of the cup hilt spectrum!

fernando · 26th May 2020, 09:11 PM

Thank you for your enthusiastic words, Jim

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Indeed this is an unusual example in all its details. But soon as i posted it here, some acquaintance i have, dedicated to these matters, reminded me of a similar, almost equal, example in exhibition in the Portuguese army museum of Lisbon. In fact all details match, since the key clue VIVA PORTUGAL on the blade, a motto profusely used whilst the restoration of independence from the Spanish Filipes took place (1640-1668). The crown is no doubt that of Dom João IV, who was then acclaimed King of Portugal.
Amazing that the length and profile of both swords is practically the same.

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M ELEY · 26th May 2020, 09:29 PM

Wow! Fernando, you've outdone yourself! That is a beast of a sword!! (And I say that in a marvelous way!). I admit that I also thought as Jim did that it could have been perhaps colonial only in that the grip being horn and unwrapped and it's splendid but unmatched proportions led me to believe it not of standard regulation. I am imagining the man that wielded it to be of equal stature! As I am far from an expert on these, do you believe the proportions of yours were for a special military unit or troop? Was the one you mentioned in the local museum attributed to a particular regiment or smith? You are a lucky dog, my friend!
Mark

Jim McDougall · 26th May 2020, 11:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

Thank you for your enthusiastic words, Jim

.
Indeed this is an unusual example in all its details. But soon as i posted it here, some acquaintance i have, dedicated to these matters, reminded me of a similar, almost equal, example in exhibition in the Portuguese army museum of Lisbon. In fact all details match, since the key clue VIVA PORTUGAL on the blade, a motto profusely used whilst the restoration of independence from the Spanish Filipes took place (1640-1668). The crown is no doubt that of Dom João IV, who was then acclaimed King of Portugal.
Amazing that the length and profile of both swords is practically the same.

.

Even more exciting Fernando! and certainly this sword would easily place to that period as well. I am glad you were able to add this most vital data which more securely places the period, such as the royal crown which is key evidence.
The heavy and shorter than usual character of the blade was of course well suited for foot forces where the melee and close quarters would find such a sword favorable.
Uh, Mark, it is tempting to even consider maritime possibilities!!

I am not sure that swords of this heft would be confined to a certain unit, however, it is interesting that 'dragoons' were essentially mounted infantry, and dismounted for combat in those times. So perhaps a dragoon unit?

Magnificent and unusual sword!!!!

Lansquenet59 · 27th May 2020, 04:22 PM

Superb acquisition! This blade is really out of the ordinary. Well done !

fernando · 28th May 2020, 02:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lansquenet59

Superb acquisition! This blade is really out of the ordinary. Well done !

Merci, Thomas

.

fernando · 27th May 2020, 05:26 PM

Thank you all guys. Always nice to hear from such broad participation.
The caption in the museum mentions this sword as one of 'military characteristics'; doesn't specify what branch it has equipped. Actually the entire caption covers a trio in exhibition; a lobster tail helmet, a cuirass ... and the cup hilt sword. This set is located in the museum war restoration room, as the three pieces are contemporary of such period.

Victrix · 27th May 2020, 06:11 PM

Very impressive piece. Particularly appealing to a Portuguese of course, but with all that history... I guess one can’t rule out naval use, where shorter and broader blades may have been favoured. The horn grip may have been popular in hot climate where metal gets hot to touch and gloves are uncomfortable to wear.

26th May 2020, 09:11 PM	#6
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,650	Thank you for your enthusiastic words, Jim . Indeed this is an unusual example in all its details. But soon as i posted it here, some acquaintance i have, dedicated to these matters, reminded me of a similar, almost equal, example in exhibition in the Portuguese army museum of Lisbon. In fact all details match, since the key clue VIVA PORTUGAL on the blade, a motto profusely used whilst the restoration of independence from the Spanish Filipes took place (1640-1668). The crown is no doubt that of Dom João IV, who was then acclaimed King of Portugal. Amazing that the length and profile of both swords is practically the same. . Attached Images

26th May 2020, 03:54 PM	#1
ulfberth Member Join Date: Jul 2014 Posts: 382	Congratulations Fernando ! it is not just another cup hilt of this genre , it is exceptionally huge and there are the fine engravings , yes I would have bought it to if I had the chance.

26th May 2020, 03:58 PM	#2
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,650	Thak you for the kind words, Dirk .

26th May 2020, 04:31 PM	#3
Gruawaesk Member Join Date: Feb 2020 Posts: 8	Stunning piece!

26th May 2020, 05:24 PM	#4
jezcott Member Join Date: Apr 2018 Location: Cambridge, UK Posts: 7	A fine sword, an absolute beast. Great inscriptions and marks, which are always half the pleasure in researching and understanding the sword.

26th May 2020, 06:45 PM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,785	Fernando, you KNOW my weakness!!! cup hilts! And with Dirk, I agree, this is a wonderful and most unusual example. In the 18th century, Spain stubbornly held to its cup hilt traditions and Portugal of course also maintained their affinity for these fascinating hilts. Without more detailed research, I would think this is likely a colonial 'arming' version of the continued colonial versions of cup hilts from probably Brazilian context. I have seen these heavy blades on various Spanish colonial swords of the 18th century it seems, and they are of course infantry officers weapons as I have understood. I am not sure of the Portuguese involvement in the Seven Years War in the Americas but it certainly seems possible this may have some connection there. Thank you for the great pics, detailed description, and sharing a MOST unusual example of the cup hilt spectrum!

26th May 2020, 09:29 PM	#7
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,076	Wow! Fernando, you've outdone yourself! That is a beast of a sword!! (And I say that in a marvelous way!). I admit that I also thought as Jim did that it could have been perhaps colonial only in that the grip being horn and unwrapped and it's splendid but unmatched proportions led me to believe it not of standard regulation. I am imagining the man that wielded it to be of equal stature! As I am far from an expert on these, do you believe the proportions of yours were for a special military unit or troop? Was the one you mentioned in the local museum attributed to a particular regiment or smith? You are a lucky dog, my friend! Mark

27th May 2020, 04:22 PM	#9
Lansquenet59 Member Join Date: Jan 2020 Location: France Posts: 132	Superb acquisition! This blade is really out of the ordinary. Well done !

27th May 2020, 05:26 PM	#11
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,650	Thank you all guys. Always nice to hear from such broad participation. The caption in the museum mentions this sword as one of 'military characteristics'; doesn't specify what branch it has equipped. Actually the entire caption covers a trio in exhibition; a lobster tail helmet, a cuirass ... and the cup hilt sword. This set is located in the museum war restoration room, as the three pieces are contemporary of such period.

27th May 2020, 06:11 PM	#12
Victrix Member Join Date: Apr 2017 Location: Sweden Posts: 682	Very impressive piece. Particularly appealing to a Portuguese of course, but with all that history... I guess one can’t rule out naval use, where shorter and broader blades may have been favoured. The horn grip may have been popular in hot climate where metal gets hot to touch and gloves are uncomfortable to wear.