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Old 21st August 2020, 09:21 PM   #1
shayde78
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Default Judith Beheading Holofernes; date disputed

Judith Beheading Holofernes; date disputed (as early as 1598 - as late as 1607).

While placing this piece in time has been challenging, I chose to include it here as it fits to the later attribution. Regardless, it shows what I think is an attempt to portray an 'exotic' blade. However, such blades were frequently represented in Medieval manuscripts (see thread of images from the Nuremberg Chronicle ), and seems to have been particularly portrayed in the hands of characters from the Jewish scriptures (aka Old Testament). While you're checking out that other link, take a moment to compare the artistic differences between what could be achieved through early printing methods, and full-scale oil paintings, and the overall changes in artistic representations. The Chronicle was compiled about a century before the works shown in this thread.

Back to the blade in Judith's hand - it is beautifully rendered and, if recreated in the round, would surely be a functional knife. Once again, the fullers are clearly shown and, to me, demonstrates that the artist was well acquainted with the work of actual bladesmiths. In the other thread, Vitrix noted that such a blade resembles that used as a maker's mark in some instances. He speculated that this might represent the sword of God. As Judith is working to protect her people in this scene, perhaps that is not a coincidental choice by Caravaggio.
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Old 21st August 2020, 09:32 PM   #2
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Default Portrait of Alof de Wignacourt and his Page; c. 1607-1608

Portrait of Alof de Wignacourt and his Page; c. 1607-1608

To me, portraiture is a true test of an artist's skill at capturing real life. Your patron is the subject, and they will want to see a faithful (ok, more likely idealized) version of themselves looking out from the canvas.

Here, we have a nearly complete suit of contemporary armor depicted. The rich decoration is well captured. Even the bit of mail at the waist/groin is apparent.

As for Alof, he was the Grand Master of the Order of St. John of Jerusalem. He made a name for himself at the battle of Malta in 1565, after which, the Turks were permanently expelled from the island. His armor certainly speaks of a man of great standing.

The page was some kid name Tom who mostly stayed in his room and played video games.
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Old 21st August 2020, 09:35 PM   #3
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Default Beheading of John the Baptist; c. 1607/1608

Beheading of John the Baptist; c. 1607/1608

Another biblical scene, another beheading. I think Alix from Clockwork Orange once spoke of the scope of violence in that 'Good Book'.

Anyway, although the details of the sword are not shown, I find interesting the depiction of how a knife would be carried in the small of the back and could be easily drawn, probably by either the right or left hand, as needed.

Also, as there is often some overlap between those of us who collect arms and those who have an interest in old keys and locks, the key ring at the one figure's waist might hold interest for some.
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Old 21st August 2020, 09:43 PM   #4
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Default Portrait of Maltese Knight Antonio Martelli; c. 1608

Portrait of Maltese Knight Antonio Martelli; c. 1608

This portrait had been thought, until recently, to be another depiction of Alof de Wignacourt. However, it is now believed to be another knight of Malta. I cannot find much information on this individual.

That said, there is a nice, working-man's rapier hilt shown. I especially like that one can glean a little of the proportions of the hilt compared to the subject's hand.
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Old 21st August 2020, 09:49 PM   #5
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Default The Martyrdom of St. Ursula; c. 1609/1610

The Martyrdom of St. Ursula; c. 1610

There is some debate if this or the next painting represents Caravaggio's final work. Since it is not firmly established, I place this as the penultimate piece.

Ursula was shot with an arrow when she refused to marry her captor, the King of the Huns. The time of the scenario depicted was c. 383 CE. I'm not sure how much license was taken with the armor, but it is still shows the interesting interplay between the armored and non-armored elements of a person's wardrobe in the early 1600s.
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Old 21st August 2020, 09:57 PM   #6
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Default David with the Head of Goliath; c. 1609/1610

David with the Head of Goliath; c. 1609/1610

Here we see Caravaggio revisit the subject of David's triumph over the giant Goliath. As I said in the previous post, there is some dispute as to this or the St. Ursula painting being his final work. However, since Caravaggio once again used this opportunity to paint a self-portrait of himself as the vanquished Philistine, I thought it fitting to close out with his portrayal of his own mortality. The artist died, possibly of being poisoned in 1610.

The sword held by David, which following the narrative was Goliath's sword, is a robust blade in with an interesting swept hilt. One can even make out the hints of an inscription in the fuller. It reminds me of when I post pictures on here and you all ask for clearer photos! You can almost make out what is written, but not quite. Still, it is a good picture to close out with because it shows that Caravaggio either had a great familiarity with such weapons and/or had access to such examples to use as props in his sittings. Either way, it speaks to the faithfulness with which he captured details.
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Old 21st August 2020, 10:01 PM   #7
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And that's all of them, as far as I can tell. I would love it if anyone could advise if I missed some works. To be honest, I almost forgot to include 'Cardsharps', which was perhaps the painting that made me want to start this thread in the first place! So it is entirely likely I missed other examples.

I am eager to hear your thoughts and impressions. I know the dozen, or so, paintings won't merit much conversation, but my hope is that this can serve as a reference for folks who browse the forums in an effort to attribute a date and locale for their pieces. If you happen to own something from Rome in the last decade of the 16th and first decade of the 17th centuries, maybe this will prove useful
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Old 25th August 2020, 05:38 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by shayde78
Judith Beheading Holofernes; date disputed (as early as 1598 - as late as 1607).

it shows what I think is an attempt to portray an 'exotic' blade. However, such blades were frequently represented in Medieval manuscripts

Back to the blade in Judith's hand - it is beautifully rendered and, if recreated in the round, would surely be a functional knife. Once again, the fullers are clearly shown and, to me, demonstrates that the artist was well acquainted with the work of actual bladesmiths. .
These cutlasses or short sabers with clipped points have a long history in Italy, having been in use for over two centuries. The painting below is San Michele ed il drago, by Antonio del Pollaiolo, ca 1466-80, in the museum of the Cathedral of Florence. An early Renaissance work, it depicts a weapon with the medieval-style "wheel" pommel but whose guard sports a rudimentary knucklebow which is the forerunner of a trend beginning early in the next century in northern Italy, from the Venetian spada da fante to the swept-hilt rapier hilts of Milan, Belluno, and other areas.

The photo is of an actual and magnificent example of one of these weapons, a coltellacio (big knife) ca. 1570, probably Brescian (Dresdner Rüstkammer, inv. no. HM VI.379, published along with above painting in Boccia/Coelho, Armi Bianche Italiane, 1975). Talk about fullers -- note the multiple rows of segmented fullers, cut as precisely as you please, a hallmark of deluxe blades of all kinds made in Brescia. A princely sword, in near perfect condition, the blade surface with intact polish (lucidatura), a painstaking process admired in the rest of Europe as well, and commonly referred to as "Milan polish".
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Old 25th August 2020, 04:19 PM   #9
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Philip, your eloquence and knowledge on these subjects is amazing and I thank you as well as Shayde, for really bringing this topic to life here! While I have never formally studied art or its history, I know well the incredible intrigue, inuendo and symbolism with which it is typically deeply imbued, which is really fascinating when combined with study of arms and material culture.

I am familiar with the last painting of the St.Michael which as noted appears in "Armi Bianche Italiene', and I had thought of these cutlass type sabers as 'storta', a probably more collective term, and wonder if you might say more on that description.

As noted, it seems that art was pretty much typically allegorical, especially in Biblical themes, but well laced with elements of the artists own life and familiarities. I think this was best illustrated for relative laymen (as myself with art) in showing how symbolism in art cryptically held profound secrrets in so many cases.

While we might believe that Carvaggio suffered the dreaded lead poisoning which plagued so many artists (though it was known of course in many other aspects in these times) it seems he was well aware of the lighter and more beautiful subjects as well.

Ironically, this topic somewhat parallels the strange case of "Dr Jekyll and Mr. Hyde", Stevensons classic on the duality of man, and oddly seems quite pertinant here.

Thank you for detailing also some of the characteristics of these Italian swords and blades. I often wondered about the deep channeling on these blades, and the high polish factor is also most interesting.
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Old 25th August 2020, 05:32 PM   #10
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I am familiar with the last painting of the St.Michael which as noted appears in "Armi Bianche Italiene', and I had thought of these cutlass type sabers as 'storta', a probably more collective term, and wonder if you might say more on that description.

.

Thanks, Jim.

The literature in Italian uses both storta and coltellacio to describe these weapons. I believe that the former is a Venetian dialectical term. In the book Armi e Armature Lombarde (ed. Boccia, Rossi, Morin, 1980) both names are used to identify very similar swords on the same page!

You find multiplicities of terms for weapons elsewhere in the literature, most notably spada da lato / striscia in reference to rapiers. The latter term is most strictly applied to especially narrow blades, although some authors and many auction cataloguers are looser in their usage. Italian can be quite precise in classifying weapons types, the trouble is that the country being a collection of states (and distinct subcultures) until the last century means strong dialectical differences can muddy the waters.

One reason for ethnographic arms collectors to also be mindful of this is that terminology can be complicated in other regions which use many similar weapons but which have marked linguistic and cultural differences which are sharpened by physical isolation and limited access to formal education in a common culture. Examples can include India, China, and the great SE Asian archipelagos - Malay and Philippine.
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Old 25th August 2020, 05:46 PM   #11
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While we might believe that Carvaggio suffered the dreaded lead poisoning which plagued so many artists (though it was known of course in many other aspects in these times) it seems he was well aware of the lighter and more beautiful subjects as well.
.
Jim, did you know that Ludwig van Beethoven is also believed to have died of lead poisoning? A sample of his hair, tested some years back, revealed a high lead content. His bio indicated that he loved his wine, often drank 1 or more bottles daily. At that time in Germany, lead was often used as a bottle stopper in lieu of corks. Also, a lot of beverages were consumed from pewter cups especially in northern Europe, and in many places on the Continent, ceramics were lead-glazed as well. So drinking your OJ out of one of those cups every morning for years and years could do you in as well!

When I was in grad school, my prof of Roman history held a discussion of the social causes for the Empire's decline. One theory, advanced in the 1970s, was that lead poisoning had addled too many brains! Some students dismissed this as the ruminations of an over-imaginative plumber, but just think: the Romans, being prolific hydraulic engineers, build large networks of aqueducts and urban piping to connect them to public baths, drinking fountains, and high class houses. Guess what the pipes were made of, and what lining was used in the aqueducts to minimize leakage? And where our term "plumbing" comes from?

In ancient Rome and premodern Italy, lead was a common adulterant to cheap wine. The Latin adjective plumbeus can denote "cheap" and was specifically applied to cut-rate vino.
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Old 26th August 2020, 02:17 AM   #12
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Thank you Philip, great explanation and that makes perfect sense. We are all familiar with the name game with different terms used for the same type weapon, but typically think of it more commonly with ethnographic weapons, than in European context. I forget about the dialectic differences.
I recall once, many years ago (MANY) trying to find a Swiss dictionary bonk!

Thats really weird about Beethoven, obviously the issue of deafness is well known, but had not heard of the lead poisoning matter. The presence of lead in pipes of course is well known as noted with Latin term 'plumbum' for lead (Pb), but had not heard of it used in cheap wine (do ya have that in a 55 gallon drum?).
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Old 27th August 2020, 12:49 AM   #13
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Thank you Philip and Jim for these additional insights. The rich allegorical nature of art is a fascinating study, and is often reflected in the arms we collect. For preliterate communities, and those with a small literate class (as much of the world was until very recently) symbolism was the best way to communicate thru visual forms. Understanding the symbolic language can go a long way to interpreting the culture from which an item originates. There is added utility to our hobby when one considers the wealth of symbols that were engraved, embossed, forged, and chiseled in the steel in which we are so often in pursuit.

Also, I think your conversation hints at the fact that the line between genius and (what we call) madness is often very thin and nebulous. Is this because only madness can create something new? Is it because seeing the world in a new way causes a distance between the visionary and others (Allegory of the Cave)? Is it simply because once someone sees what others cannot, or refuse to see, they simply never feel at home in society any longer? OR, is it simply madness caused by lead. I think the fact that many of our modern artists in all media (music, paint, metal, words) are not exposed to lead, but exhibit many of the same mercurial temperaments speaks to environmental toxins as being merely a concurrent factor, perhaps exacerbating, but not truly causal.

Regardless, without some 'madmen', I'm not sure we'd have the swept hilt, patterned Damascus, Maximillian armor, and the like. Frankly, the meticulous alchemy involved in creating a sound blade would drive most of us mad if operating under the conditions of a smith prior to the 1800s!

I am well pleased that these images have sparked some discussion. Thank you for receiving them with interest
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Old 27th August 2020, 04:32 AM   #14
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Thank you Philip and Jim for these additional insights.

... is it simply madness caused by lead. I think the fact that many of our modern artists in all media (music, paint, metal, words) are not exposed to lead, but exhibit many of the same mercurial temperaments speaks to environmental toxins as being merely a concurrent factor, perhaps exacerbating, but not truly causal.

You're most welcome.

Isn't it wonderful that some modern artists (am thinking of rock stars and the like) have more exciting things than lead to tweak their brains with? Get high, set the world on fire, and go out in a blaze of glory at a young age. Il Caravaggio's model has appeal to some folks centuries later.
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