Shooting a jezail rifle

SchildaBrit · 3rd April 2021, 06:04 PM

Forget the ímplausible stuff about having the butt under the armpit. It seems that no-one has ever produced a photo or an eye-witness account to substantiate this theory. You hold it just like any other rifle. And in fact the drop makes it easier to hold your head upright and get your eye squarely behind the peephole, rather than in the usual skewed position.

As for recoil - what recoil? this was only 47gn of S3 powder in a rifle that weights almost 6kg.

SchildaBrit · 3rd April 2021, 06:20 PM

The contributor of post #15 is entitled to have an opinion.

He is, however, not entitled to express that opinion rudely, with unfounded assumptions and personal denigration.

Battara · 3rd April 2021, 07:01 PM

SchildaBrit is right - if we can't be civil and not call people names, then I will shut down this thread.

Opinions are fine, but please keep this to the subject at hand.

mariusgmioc · 4th April 2021, 07:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SchildaBrit

The contributor of post #15 is entitled to have an opinion.

He is, however, not entitled to express that opinion rudely, with unfounded assumptions and personal denigration.

I sincerely did not want to offend you, and I sincerely appologise if I did!

My message was posted under an impulse as I felt that the test you did was extremely dangerous since, in this case, is impossible to predict how metal aging has affected the steel.

Aged steel ca become alarmingly brittle and crack under minimal stress. And antique gun barrel steel is quite well known for aging badly.

All the best and HAPPY EASTER!

Marius

PS: Effects of aging on steels is well studied and it can be predicted... providig the original compsition of the steel, and the heat treatment are accurately known. Without knowing precisely the composition and heat treatment of the steel, the effects of aging are unpredictable... no matter how deep and sound is one's knowledge on powder loads and firearms safety.

And since, contrary to surface oxidation, aging shows little if any signs discernable with the naked eye, most peope are completely unaware of it.

kronckew · 4th April 2021, 07:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

... it is impossible to predict how metal aging has affected the steel.

Aged steel can become alarmingly brittle and crack under minimal stress. And gun barrel steel is quite well known of aging badly.
...
Marius

I read somewhere (Churchill?) that at the battle of Omdurman in 1898, many of the Mahdi's men wore rather old maille. It was noted that it had a bad habit of shattering when hit with a sabre or lance (or a bullet). Pre-industrial steel was rather variable before the mid 19c. Early primers as well as gunpowder residue were rather corrosive to barrels if not washed out quickly after use.

Kubur · 4th April 2021, 08:25 AM

Hi guys,

I just want to say that Marius is a very polite and respectuous forum member, a gentleman like many forum members. Marius can be ironic and he does some jokes, and as I remember, I was also his "victim", but it was well placed and I wasn't offended.

Now the two points of Marius are very valid:

Can we use antique weapons?
Is it dangerous to shot with antique guns?

I love this thread and I admire Schilda, Bobi and of course Rick!

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...t=26201&page=2

But I don't know if you are unconscious or if your knowledge of antique firearms is such that you know that you can use such weapons.

Please tell us more about this point how did you check that you can use an antique gun? And how are you sure that it won't explode in your hands?

The second point is: can we use antique arms? Is it serious and respectful?

For Bobi13, it is part of his culture and there is a cultural link and continuity that I can understand. I use antique incense burner and I don't feel guilty...

So it's more an ethical problem and each of us has his own response. After all you are free to do whatever you want with your possession...

Now I have to look for my egg...

SchildaBrit · 4th April 2021, 10:28 AM

1) Can we use antique guns?

2) Is it dangerous to shoot with antique guns?

-----------------------------

Good morning everybody!

I shall endeavour to answer the above questions in a satisfactory manner. In the course of which it is also appropriate to make some presentation of myself, so that you may judge whether my answers are worth reading.

-------------------------

I first shot full-bore rifles as a CCF cadet more than 60 years ago, having started with small-bore rifles a year or two previously. And safety was stressed from Day 1.

As a rifle shooter, I thus permit myself the predicate "experienced".

Despite one's inner conviction of being an "advanced teenager", there comes a time when one realizes that it is futile to compete with those in their teens and twenties. I became more interested in the historical aspect of what I was shooting than in squeezing out a couple more 10x's.

It has taken me a further two decades to progress from shooting replica muzzle-loaders to the jezail rifle. It is not a spontaneous whim, but the result of a long progress back through the development of rifles. A kind of experimental archaeology of the recent past.

Among the armchair experts, of which there are far too many with time on their hands to propound secondhand prejudices based on no personal experience whatever, there is a simple equation "old = inaccurate = useless". It is demonstrably not so.

So we come to the first question:

Can we use antique guns?

I am restricting the comments to guns, as that is where my knowledge and experience lies. The contributors to this forum appear to be mainly collectors, and there is very little comment on actually using antique guns.

Leaving aside the vexatious question of what constitutes an antique, I therefore suggest that those who have further interest in following this thread go here:

https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/brit...ssion-arms-f4/

where one may see that there are quite a few serious people who share my predilection for shooting old guns.

I shall continue in a day or so, but please take the opportunity to take a look around the above forum in the meantime.

A pleasant Easter to All !

Patrick Chadwick

Jim McDougall · 4th April 2021, 02:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SchildaBrit

1) Can we use antique guns?

2) Is it dangerous to shoot with antique guns?

-----------------------------

Good morning everybody!

I shall endeavour to answer the above questions in a satisfactory manner. In the course of which it is also appropriate to make some presentation of myself, so that you may judge whether my answers are worth reading.

-------------------------

I first shot full-bore rifles as a CCF cadet more than 60 years ago, having started with small-bore rifles a year or two previously. And safety was stressed from Day 1.

As a rifle shooter, I thus permit myself the predicate "experienced".

Despite one's inner conviction of being an "advanced teenager", there comes a time when one realizes that it is futile to compete with those in their teens and twenties. I became more interested in the historical aspect of what I was shooting than in squeezing out a couple more 10x's.

It has taken me a further two decades to progress from shooting replica muzzle-loaders to the jezail rifle. It is not a spontaneous whim, but the result of a long progress back through the development of rifles. A kind of experimental archaeology of the recent past.

Among the armchair experts, of which there are far too many with time on their hands to propound secondhand prejudices based on no personal experience whatever, there is a simple equation "old = inaccurate = useless". It is demonstrably not so.

So we come to the first question:

Can we use antique guns?

I am restricting the comments to guns, as that is where my knowledge and experience lies. The contributors to this forum appear to be mainly collectors, and there is very little comment on actually using antique guns.

Leaving aside the vexatious question of what constitutes an antique, I therefore suggest that those who have further interest in following this thread go here:

https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/brit...ssion-arms-f4/

where one may see that there are quite a few serious people who share my predilection for shooting old guns.

I shall continue in a day or so, but please take the opportunity to take a look around the above forum in the meantime.

A pleasant Easter to All !

Patrick Chadwick

Beautifully expressed Patrick!!! very professional and insights into the actual viability of actual firing of these old guns. Thank you.

David R · 4th April 2021, 09:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kronckew

I read somewhere (Churchill?) that at the battle of Omdurman in 1898, many of the Mahdi's men wore rather old maille. It was noted that it had a bad habit of shattering when hit with a sabre or lance (or a bullet). Pre-industrial steel was rather variable before the mid 19c. Early primers as well as gunpowder residue were rather corrosive to barrels if not washed out quickly after use.

To the best of my knowledge a lot of that Mahdist mail had been made in Birmingham (UK) originally as dress armour for the Khediv's troops, and then looted by the victorious Mahdists. They were made of split rings, and so were in fact spring steel. Swords weren't the problem, but high velocity jacketed 303 were.

Jim McDougall · 4th April 2021, 02:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David R

To the best of my knowledge a lot of that Mahdist mail had been made in Birmingham (UK) originally as dress armour for the Khediv's troops, and then looted by the victorious Mahdists. They were made of split rings, and so were in fact spring steel. Swords weren't the problem, but high velocity jacketed 303 were.

While digressing a bit here re: mail, it is salient to consider the durability of metal with quality, age and compromising through neglect etc.

Much of the mail made for the Khedive's troops was indeed made in Birmingham as noted, and was more dress intended than the more substantial mail for combat that was well known from various other sources. If I have understood correctly, the butted ring type mail (as I think this was) would split and separate on impact, so the considerable impact of a bullet with velocity would not only penetrate, but shatter, adding to the shrapnel of the bullet itself.

While sword impact would not necessarily penetrate, the mail would carry the force through leading to blunt force trauma in according degree.

There was a degree of older mail extant with sources mostly Mamluk which had circulated for years, but as with older metal compromised by corrosion through neglect, much of this was likely unserviceable in the same manner.
Corroded metal is of course susceptible to shattering when impacted by strong force.

mariusgmioc · 4th April 2021, 11:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

Without knowing precisely the composition and heat treatment of the steel, the effects of aging are unpredictable... no matter how deep and sound is one's knowledge on powder loads and firearms safety.

And since, contrary to surface oxidation, aging shows little if any signs discernable with the naked eye, most peope are completely unaware of it.

"Can we use antique guns?"

Of course we can! We can use whatever we want.

Is it safe?! Is it wise?!

Certainly not!

But... this is only my oppinion...
... based on my knowledge...

PPS: I am mechanical engineer.
Studied metallurgy since high school and still learning...
as I am currently working in the field of machining steel and other metals.

https://qr.ae/pG8xES

The comment at the link above touches several issues I did not mention. But there are even a couple more that should be taken into condideration, like the presence of internal micro-cracks resulted from prolonged use.

ariel · 4th April 2021, 01:05 PM

I do not like guns and do not use them.
In short, I am a complete gun ignoramus. Therefore, a naive question.

Should not damascus barrels present higher risk of blowing up after a certain period of active shooting? After all, they are composed of multiple layers of steel forged together. There must be some areas of poor contact between the layers. Afghan gunsmiths likely did nor employ the same degree of accuracy and quality control as their Belgian and British colleagues. I have quite a few Indian and Afghani swords, and some of them have areas of poor forging and delamination.
On top of that, depositions of some material within the barrel must increase pressure of the gases there.
We all get old and frail with age, and barrels, like all mechanical thingies , are not an exception.
In short, it is better to be a coward for one minute than a corpse for the rest of your life.

Will M · 4th April 2021, 01:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

Should not damascus barrels present higher risk of blowing up after a certain period of active shooting? After all, they are composed of multiple layers of steel forged together.
In short, it is better to be a coward for one minute than a corpse for the rest of your life.

Ariel we all become corpses sooner or later! Shooting damascus barrels represents no risk when they are in good condition and loads do not exceed the intended pressures. Use does not hurt them, abuse does.

Battara · 5th April 2021, 12:20 AM

I'm of 2 opposing opinions:

1. I am fascinated by scientific exploration of the shooting of these weapons

2. I am highly cautious because of the aging of metals. I will never shoot off my Moro lantaka cannon because it might be anywhere from 150 - 400 years old and blow up in my face.

(not unknown for some owners of old lantakas who shot off their cannons).

Richard G · 5th April 2021, 05:15 PM

This has nothing to do with the physical practicalities of firing old guns, but here, in the UK, we have a bureaucratic problem. Paraphrasing somewhat -
To own and fire a firearm you will have to possess a firearms certificate that entitles you to own firearms and lists the firearms you own. There are hoops to be jumped through and they are not that easy to obtain.
Antique firearms are exempt from this requirement providing they are obsolete and held as curios only.
If you decide to fire it, it is no longer a curio, becomes a working firearm and has to be licensed.
So if you want to sell it you can now only sell to someone who holds a firearms certificate, i,e. licensed to own a firearm.
Of course, you can apply for it to be de-licensed but the authorities are not keen on this flip-flopping. They want an antique firearm to be either an antique or a firearm, not both.
Regards
Richard

Will M · 4th April 2021, 01:30 PM

I am not aware that age alone degrades metals.
When the elastic limit is not exceeded and barrels have not corroded they retain their properties.

If age alone degrades steel I'd like to see the references for this.

Failures occur in old arms due to corrosion with some methods of manufacture that allow unseen corrosion to exist in flaws in the metal or where joined and hammer welded. Other failures come from overpressures and severe erosion from gas washing.

For the ages we are concerned with of up to a few 100 years, firearms in "good" condition can sustain the same stresses as they could when manufactured. Stay within the original pressures, the barrels will perform as intended.
I fire old Snider/Enfields circ. 1850's and they work well.
I would not fire any old firearm that I cannot view the bore and breech. Lack of cleaning and preserving can lead to corrosion at the breech end that could lead to a pressure failure.

Nothing more than a judgement call as to whether you fire an antique firearm. Many can be enjoyed as functioning arms while others that have been neglected it's best not to.

mariusgmioc · 4th April 2021, 01:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Will M

I am not aware that age alone degrades metals.
When the elastic limit is not exceeded and barrels have not corroded they retain their properties.

If age alone degrades steel I'd like to see the references for this.

https://www.metalsupermarkets.co.uk/...s-metal-aging/

https://scholar.google.co.uk/scholar...=1&oi=scholart

And some interesting info on the effects of fatigue (mechanical fatigue resulted from the repeated mechanical forces/pressure, and thermal fatigue, resulted from the repeated cycles of heating and cooling) on gun barrels, that is even more important in the case of antique firearms where one doesn't know:
1. the material of the barrel,
2. the heat treatment of the barrel,
3. how was it manufactured (solid block drilled, spiral welded, multi-layered sleeved, etc.),
4. the conditions in which it was used (what type of propellant, what loads, etc.),
5. how long was it used/how many times was it fired,
6. how well was maintained.

Not knowing the answers to these questions but proclaiming it is safe to shoot an antique gun doesn't sound wise to me.

Will M · 4th April 2021, 02:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

https://www.metalsupermarkets.co.uk/...s-metal-aging/

https://scholar.google.co.uk/scholar...=1&oi=scholart

Seems metal aging is an intentional method to get desired results and does not enter into the realm of firearms barrels and other steels by the passage of time.
Does not seem to be applicable to the topic.

3rd April 2021, 06:20 PM	#2
SchildaBrit Member Join Date: Dec 2019 Posts: 33	Post #15 The contributor of post #15 is entitled to have an opinion. He is, however, not entitled to express that opinion rudely, with unfounded assumptions and personal denigration.

4th April 2021, 10:28 AM	#7
SchildaBrit Member Join Date: Dec 2019 Posts: 33	Some answers to reasonable questions 1) Can we use antique guns? 2) Is it dangerous to shoot with antique guns? ----------------------------- Good morning everybody! I shall endeavour to answer the above questions in a satisfactory manner. In the course of which it is also appropriate to make some presentation of myself, so that you may judge whether my answers are worth reading. ------------------------- I first shot full-bore rifles as a CCF cadet more than 60 years ago, having started with small-bore rifles a year or two previously. And safety was stressed from Day 1. As a rifle shooter, I thus permit myself the predicate "experienced". Despite one's inner conviction of being an "advanced teenager", there comes a time when one realizes that it is futile to compete with those in their teens and twenties. I became more interested in the historical aspect of what I was shooting than in squeezing out a couple more 10x's. It has taken me a further two decades to progress from shooting replica muzzle-loaders to the jezail rifle. It is not a spontaneous whim, but the result of a long progress back through the development of rifles. A kind of experimental archaeology of the recent past. Among the armchair experts, of which there are far too many with time on their hands to propound secondhand prejudices based on no personal experience whatever, there is a simple equation "old = inaccurate = useless". It is demonstrably not so. So we come to the first question: Can we use antique guns? I am restricting the comments to guns, as that is where my knowledge and experience lies. The contributors to this forum appear to be mainly collectors, and there is very little comment on actually using antique guns. Leaving aside the vexatious question of what constitutes an antique, I therefore suggest that those who have further interest in following this thread go here: https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/brit...ssion-arms-f4/ where one may see that there are quite a few serious people who share my predilection for shooting old guns. I shall continue in a day or so, but please take the opportunity to take a look around the above forum in the meantime. A pleasant Easter to All ! Patrick Chadwick Last edited by SchildaBrit; 4th April 2021 at 10:46 AM.

3rd April 2021, 06:04 PM	#1
SchildaBrit Member Join Date: Dec 2019 Posts: 33	Recoil Forget the ímplausible stuff about having the butt under the armpit. It seems that no-one has ever produced a photo or an eye-witness account to substantiate this theory. You hold it just like any other rifle. And in fact the drop makes it easier to hold your head upright and get your eye squarely behind the peephole, rather than in the usual skewed position. As for recoil - what recoil? this was only 47gn of S3 powder in a rifle that weights almost 6kg.

3rd April 2021, 07:01 PM	#3
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,139	SchildaBrit is right - if we can't be civil and not call people names, then I will shut down this thread. Opinions are fine, but please keep this to the subject at hand.

4th April 2021, 08:25 AM	#6
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	Hi guys, I just want to say that Marius is a very polite and respectuous forum member, a gentleman like many forum members. Marius can be ironic and he does some jokes, and as I remember, I was also his "victim", but it was well placed and I wasn't offended. Now the two points of Marius are very valid: Can we use antique weapons? Is it dangerous to shot with antique guns? I love this thread and I admire Schilda, Bobi and of course Rick! http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...t=26201&page=2 But I don't know if you are unconscious or if your knowledge of antique firearms is such that you know that you can use such weapons. Please tell us more about this point how did you check that you can use an antique gun? And how are you sure that it won't explode in your hands? The second point is: can we use antique arms? Is it serious and respectful? For Bobi13, it is part of his culture and there is a cultural link and continuity that I can understand. I use antique incense burner and I don't feel guilty... So it's more an ethical problem and each of us has his own response. After all you are free to do whatever you want with your possession... Now I have to look for my egg...

4th April 2021, 01:05 PM	#12
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	I do not like guns and do not use them. In short, I am a complete gun ignoramus. Therefore, a naive question. Should not damascus barrels present higher risk of blowing up after a certain period of active shooting? After all, they are composed of multiple layers of steel forged together. There must be some areas of poor contact between the layers. Afghan gunsmiths likely did nor employ the same degree of accuracy and quality control as their Belgian and British colleagues. I have quite a few Indian and Afghani swords, and some of them have areas of poor forging and delamination. On top of that, depositions of some material within the barrel must increase pressure of the gases there. We all get old and frail with age, and barrels, like all mechanical thingies , are not an exception. In short, it is better to be a coward for one minute than a corpse for the rest of your life.

5th April 2021, 12:20 AM	#14
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,139	I'm of 2 opposing opinions: 1. I am fascinated by scientific exploration of the shooting of these weapons 2. I am highly cautious because of the aging of metals. I will never shoot off my Moro lantaka cannon because it might be anywhere from 150 - 400 years old and blow up in my face. (not unknown for some owners of old lantakas who shot off their cannons).

5th April 2021, 05:15 PM	#15
Richard G Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Posts: 402	This has nothing to do with the physical practicalities of firing old guns, but here, in the UK, we have a bureaucratic problem. Paraphrasing somewhat - To own and fire a firearm you will have to possess a firearms certificate that entitles you to own firearms and lists the firearms you own. There are hoops to be jumped through and they are not that easy to obtain. Antique firearms are exempt from this requirement providing they are obsolete and held as curios only. If you decide to fire it, it is no longer a curio, becomes a working firearm and has to be licensed. So if you want to sell it you can now only sell to someone who holds a firearms certificate, i,e. licensed to own a firearm. Of course, you can apply for it to be de-licensed but the authorities are not keen on this flip-flopping. They want an antique firearm to be either an antique or a firearm, not both. Regards Richard

4th April 2021, 01:30 PM	#16
Will M Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: In the wee woods north of Napanee Ontario Posts: 390	I am not aware that age alone degrades metals. When the elastic limit is not exceeded and barrels have not corroded they retain their properties. If age alone degrades steel I'd like to see the references for this. Failures occur in old arms due to corrosion with some methods of manufacture that allow unseen corrosion to exist in flaws in the metal or where joined and hammer welded. Other failures come from overpressures and severe erosion from gas washing. For the ages we are concerned with of up to a few 100 years, firearms in "good" condition can sustain the same stresses as they could when manufactured. Stay within the original pressures, the barrels will perform as intended. I fire old Snider/Enfields circ. 1850's and they work well. I would not fire any old firearm that I cannot view the bore and breech. Lack of cleaning and preserving can lead to corrosion at the breech end that could lead to a pressure failure. Nothing more than a judgement call as to whether you fire an antique firearm. Many can be enjoyed as functioning arms while others that have been neglected it's best not to.