Trisula of unknown origin

[VVV]

Thanks all for your comments.

It would be interesting to also read the comments from the chairman of the Dutch Keris Association.
Ben, maybe you could ask him to do a "guest appearance"?

Quote from above by Alan:
"The fact that there is no tunjung I find an anomaly."

Could you please develop this?
I must have misunderstood something here?
Does it have to be metal, or?

On the shape of the Trisula spearhead I found this old reference picture on the Internet.
To me it seems as if the upper Trisula has some resemblance to mine of the spear head design and proportions?
It doesn't have any further description than it's Java.
But the Keris on the same picture is of course from Madura?

Michael

[A. G. Maisey]

I'm afraid I cannot see a real lot from that picture, Michael.

Yes, either of the top two tombaks could be considered to have a degree of similarity to yours, in one way or another, but personally I would not be prepared to make any comment as to relevance , based upon that picture.

What I have been taught, and what I have observed, is that the two overwhelming indicators for classification of a tombak are material, and the metuk.

In the case of your trisula, the material is almost impossible to read, and the metuk is so far divorced from any type I am familiar with that I simply cannot even offer a wild guess.Looking at what I can see in that trisula, I would not be prepared to say more than "South East Asia".

Regarding the tunjung.
I have yet to see a Javanese tombak landean that does not have a tunjung. Even simple village quality ones have some sort of tunjung. What I can see on your landean is an area of ornamental carving where there should be a tunjung. The tip of this length of carving is scuffed, which would seem to indicate that there has been no tunjung there for a very long time, and possibly there never was one.In fact, since the end section of the landean swells between its tip, and the area of bulbous and foliate carving, it would be difficult if not impossible to fit a tunjung, so I think we must assume that there never was one.If there never was a tunjung, one must ask why. Is there some area of SE Asia where tunjungs are not fitted? I don't know the answer to this question, but I do know that I would expect to see a tunjung on any Javanese landean.

The material of a tunjung in an ornamental landean will normally match the sopal, but in an old weapon quality landean, it will most often be iron, and the sopal will be replaced by iron bands and cord binding.

[VVV]

Alan,

Thanks for your explanations.
As I understand it; when you say something is or isn't Javanese then you mean the cultural center of Java, not the geographical island of Java?
This means that you exclude f.i. East Java as well as West Java when you describe something as following the Javanese traditional form?
So by stating that it's not Javanese you mean that it isn't from the Solo or Yogya influenced regions?
F.i. a spear from Cirebon is according to your standards not Javanese (=culturally Javanese)?

I bring this up because for me, not as used to Javanese culture as you are, it was a bit confusing at the beginning of our discussions and I am not sure that the rest of the forum members got that part?

I hope I have understood how to read your comments correctly?

Michael

[A. G. Maisey]

When I say that something is Javanese, or is not Javanese, I am attempting to apply the definition of Java/Jawa, as the concept of "The Land of Jawa".This is not my standard.This is the concept of Jawa as held by all traditional Javanese people I have ever known, and it comes through in the babads.

The Land of Jawa is not the same as the Island of Java. I cannot be too specific in fixation of precise limits on The Land of Jawa, because I think that to understand what is and is not The Land of Jawa we would need to have a very firm idea of what Sultan Agung regarded as the limits of his core realm.

To the west, we can certainly exclude Sunda, but what were the precise limits of Sunda in Sultan Agung's time? The limit of where Sundanese was spoken? Possibly, but I doubt that it is possible today to fix that exactly.

To the east we can include the area of the old Majapahit seat of power, and perhaps we can extend the idea as far as the old kingdom of Kediri, but if we do that, we over-rule the definition on the basis of language.Just how far east we can extend the concept of The Land of Jawa, I am uncertain.

As an approximate guide we might be able to use the boundaries of present day Jawa Tengah, but I do emphasise "approximate". It could be an interesting research project to go back to the old records and try to define as closely as possible what The Land of Jawa was in Javanese thought from, say, early 1600's through to perhaps the establishment of Surakarta.

As non-Javanese, possibly we could come close to understanding the concept if we thought of The Land of Jawa as the cultural heart of Jawa:- the area where Central Javanese dialects are spoken. If we used this measure, we would have to acknowledge that the boundaries of The Land of Jawa cannot be fixed precisely across time, but will vary throughout history.

Since Modern Javanese (language) did not begin to develop until the time of the establishment of the second kingdom of Mataram, and prior to that, Old Javanese was in general use, then a definition of boundaries based on language useage would be difficult to support on a historic basis, no matter how convenient it might be to apply now.

We cannot be so restrictive as to say The Land of Jawa is only those areas under the influence of the two branches of the House of Mataram. This would limit the boundaries to only the Central Javanese Plain, and possibly not all of that.Additionally, it would fix the concept historically to commencement in the 17th century. Since the early rulers of Mataram traced their lineage to Majapahit, and Majapahit linked to Kediri, I think we must accept that Sultan Agung would have regarded at least some of the old Majapahit kingdom as his right.

I'm sorry I cannot be more precise than this, but "The Land of Jawa" is an idea, or perhaps an ideal, more than a precise geographic definition. However, this idea is central to the classification of wesi aji, because the dominant Surakarta system really only considers as legitimate those items of wesi aji that can be classified as being produced by the Empus of the Land of Jawa.

Thus, when I look at a tombak, I look for the designated indicators that will allow me to classify that tombak as "Javanese", that is, an item of wesi aji made by a maker from The Land of Jawa.

[VVV]

Thanks Alan for your explanation.
For me, at least, this has been an eye opener in my understanding of Javanese culture and Keris/Tombak classification methods.
That was the reason I brought it up for the rest of the forum.

Michael

[Dajak]

Hi The chairman did make a study about this subject and publish this on 8 nov
2005

the metuk has seen in java in silver gold suasa with or without krowit (flower)not al tunjung are in iron

Batang landeyan can be found in palmhout rozen hout enz

He says defenitly this is Java (I don t like to insult any one but the most knowledge about the keris and Indonesian weapons from the past can be found in the Netherlands In some private collections and museums we have more than than can be found in Indonesia the knowledge about these things
that we took from the early time that we been there was al written down
by the Dutch Germans English the Indonesian people by that time 1600 had not much interest in how the keris was made or develop that has also to do with the fear they had for it only a few High stand Indonesian people did have some knowledge the rich ones . who looses a lot off their stuf by gambling or mismanegemant so we get a lot in the Dutch hands .
In the early years In the Stone you can read the Dutch pandhouses have an formula to see if it is an bad or good keris.
The most study about pamor can be found by the european books.
An famous Tammens did make a big study about the kris .
He did have some krisses that are famous and one that had bring unluck to a few people not an story but al proven I see this keris and did not want to touch it becuase they cal this one the car damage keris
the story about this can be read In the book from H.W.M.J. Rijnders geloven in bijgeloof an very nice book that goes about goena goena black and withe magic demons etc.)

In the Stone page 629 is the same it says java I think we have to look what was in the past and not look how we call the parts now to avoid mistakes these weapons are from the past not from 25 years ago


Ben

[David]

Hi Ben. I trust that you will not take offense as well, but while it is undoubtly true that the Dutch have amassed a great deal of information on the keris and related weapons, having been colonial rulers in the region for centuries, i don't necessarily believe this means that they are the owners of the greatest amount of "knowledge" on the subject and therefore automatically trump all other opinions on the subject. Certainly the largest collections for study do exist in the Netherlands. To be realistic, while some of these weapons my have come into Dutch hands through mismanagement and gambling, hundreds more keris were also, no doubt, taking off the still warm corpses of their Balinese owners after the 1906 and 1908 pupatans. From my readings on the history of colonial Bali i have gotten the general impression that the Dutch never really fully understood Balinese culture. The same can probably be said for any colonizing nation. We Americans never understood the American Indians very well either. I admitedly know very little about their dealings in Jawa or othe parts of Indonesia. But it is my general understanding that it was not a completely friendly occupation.
Tammens work is invaluable, but probably not without it's flaws. The same can be said for just about all Western writers on the keris and probably quite a few native Indonesian ones. There are indeed many studies on pamor in European books and many of them disagree with each other. I guess my point is that i am not willing to simply accept that your Dutch keris chairman is correct just because he is Dutch and he says so. I must say that the supporting illustrations that you posted don't seem to my eye to be positive matches for the trisula Michael has posted. For instance, which of the metuks shown in the drawings do you think resembles Michael's? And the center blade in the drawings is not the same angular shape as Michael's. I also must say that while it is not impossible, i am finding it hard to see this as 17thC work. I don't know enough about these to form a viable opinion on origin, but i would say it is hardly a closed matter.

[Dajak]

Hi David

lets talk about the real name at that time is java not jawa

I don t tell he is right about because that he is Dutch
No he did research on this subject in many books with other people

The fight in Bali has nothing to do with misunderstanding cultures
but with getting the control back .

Same what the American people did taking land from the Indians

Can you tell me an Indonesian book about keris that is 100 years old please

I only talk about facts not what I think

let me know

I only wanna tell that by that time the most indonesian people have no interest about the keris at that time I dont now any old book about Indonesian weapons from that time while european people make study s about the subject

Ben