Elephant swords

fernando · 13th December 2018, 12:47 PM

Points taken Ariel ... and undisputed; restraining chains for captivity and restricted movimentation, such as parades or fighting sessions.
This brings a question; how do they 'store' elephants ? We can follow Alvaro Velho's description of how they teach the female to go find a male and entices him to follow her and falls into the disguised trapping pit; where he spends six days before they start feeding him, firstly with little food and more each following day until he starts coming to eat. This goes on for a month, when they start bringing him food while they soften him, up to when they lay (with him) on the pit ground. And this they do for as many days as needed to lay their hands on his teeth. After which, they go down and throw some gross chains on his feet, in having them placed they teach him so well that nothing they miss except to talk. And then they keep them in stables, like horses; and a good elephant is worth 2 000 cruzados.

Could the term used by Garcia de Orta, camaras (chambers) be equivalent to Velho's stables ?

However if we consider such stables resource to be consistent with the needs to lodge a couple civilian animals for working purposes, how would they do with a thousand war ones ? Open air, chains by the thousand ... pegged ?

Another subject yet to be (more) clarified is that of the use of whipping chains in war elephants trunks. It might be pure fantasy but, there is no smoke without fire ... or is there ?

PS:
Time to remind that, ongoing translations are passive of unwilling flaws; some of the posted episodes are picked from the original post-medieval scripts which contain, for a non expert, several 'awkward' expressions; and still one has to interpreter them and then convert them into a non native idiom; no language degree here. Efforts go for a reasonable transmission of the essential parts in context.

ariel · 13th December 2018, 09:44 PM

Re. whipping chains:

I decided to conduct an experiment: found a thick rope, and held it in my right hand leaving about a foot loose. Then I started swinging my arm, left and right, up and down. About every third swing the rope hit my arm. Then I increased the length to ~ 2 feet: 2 out of 3 times I got hit in the head or in my right arm ( an equivalent of a trunk).

Thus, any elephant doing the same would hurt his trunk and head mercilessly.

Any forumite wishing to repeat the experiment with a medium size iron chain is welcome to it. Just do not say I did not warn you.

This is why Charney’s description of a chain attached to one leg, wrapped around the trunk with the end of it secured by the tip of the trunk seems more sound to me. In effect, the elephant would hit the enemy with a very heavy armored trunk without a risk of hurting itself by the free segment of the chain.

fernando · 14th December 2018, 01:03 PM

Ariel, what i admire more (most) in your endeavor is the risk you took to rupture your biceps

.
On the other hand, it could either be my poor(est) english or the method Mr. Charney described requires some juggling abilities from the part of the elephant

.

Jens Nordlunde · 14th December 2018, 02:23 PM

Ariel, it is an interesting experiment you have made.
When reading the description the old travelers give they are a bit loose, as to how the chain 'trick' was made, so it may have been as you say, the chain was wrapped around the trunk - an armoured trunk so to say.

mahratt · 14th December 2018, 02:45 PM

Very interesting experiment

But the only thing he proves is that the person who does this experiment is not an elephant

ariel · 14th December 2018, 05:11 PM

Fernando,
My guess is that the chain might have been wrapped around by the handlers, and teaching the creature to hold the free end in its trunk tip might have been relatively easier than teaching it to endure self-inflicted pain.

The bottom line, we shall never know exactly the particulars of elephants' training for war, their tactics, equipment, problems etc. We can only surmise and make our best guesses assuming that our logic is similar to the native one. However, when I try to read Elgood's book on Hindu rituals or discussions in our Kris Forum, I understand how far apart we are....

This art died more than 300 years ago, and we are left with only occasional hearsay accounts by European travellers and snippets of old local stories, both of unproven veracity. The locals did not leave us much: Charney ruefully describes virtual absence of written accounts from SE Asia due to humid climate and insects. Even more durable antiquities fare not better: I went to the Royal Palace in Bangkok to see their collection of old weapons. They were all nicely arranged outside in the open shelving and covered in red rust. Ain't no Louvre or British Library, folks....

Ian · 14th December 2018, 06:43 PM

This has been an interesting and "freewheeling" discussion but has strayed a long way from the original topic of "elephant swords." Chains and how to restrain elephants, etc. is some distance from the OP. Perhaps we could get back to Jens initial ideas.

Ian.

ariel · 14th December 2018, 05:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Ariel, it is an interesting experiment you have made.
When reading the description the old travelers give they are a bit loose, as to how the chain 'trick' was made, so it may have been as you say, the chain was wrapped around the trunk - an armoured trunk so to say.

I learned the art of constructing an experiment from my mentor and the stories about Enrico Fermi: make it simple, stupid:-)

During the first test of atomic bomb Fermi stood some kilometers away from the explosion site with pieces of torn paper in his fist. He raised his hand and opened his fist at the moment of the arrival of the explosion wave : the paper pieces flew away. He looked how far away they flew, made a couple of calculations in his head and announced the power of the explosion. His answer was >10 kiloton. Actually, it was 18.6.

He was famous for his power of estimation of unknown phenomena using intuitive information. His most famous question to Ph.D. candidates in physics at the University of Chicago was: how many piano tuners are in Chicago? No Yellow Pages were allowed.

I learned a lot from these lessons, but still wish I was half as smart.....

13th December 2018, 12:47 PM	#1
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,651	Points taken Ariel ... and undisputed; restraining chains for captivity and restricted movimentation, such as parades or fighting sessions. This brings a question; how do they 'store' elephants ? We can follow Alvaro Velho's description of how they teach the female to go find a male and entices him to follow her and falls into the disguised trapping pit; where he spends six days before they start feeding him, firstly with little food and more each following day until he starts coming to eat. This goes on for a month, when they start bringing him food while they soften him, up to when they lay (with him) on the pit ground. And this they do for as many days as needed to lay their hands on his teeth. After which, they go down and throw some gross chains on his feet, in having them placed they teach him so well that nothing they miss except to talk. And then they keep them in stables, like horses; and a good elephant is worth 2 000 cruzados. Could the term used by Garcia de Orta, camaras (chambers) be equivalent to Velho's stables ? However if we consider such stables resource to be consistent with the needs to lodge a couple civilian animals for working purposes, how would they do with a thousand war ones ? Open air, chains by the thousand ... pegged ? Another subject yet to be (more) clarified is that of the use of whipping chains in war elephants trunks. It might be pure fantasy but, there is no smoke without fire ... or is there ? PS: Time to remind that, ongoing translations are passive of unwilling flaws; some of the posted episodes are picked from the original post-medieval scripts which contain, for a non expert, several 'awkward' expressions; and still one has to interpreter them and then convert them into a non native idiom; no language degree here. Efforts go for a reasonable transmission of the essential parts in context.

13th December 2018, 09:44 PM	#2
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Re. whipping chains: I decided to conduct an experiment: found a thick rope, and held it in my right hand leaving about a foot loose. Then I started swinging my arm, left and right, up and down. About every third swing the rope hit my arm. Then I increased the length to ~ 2 feet: 2 out of 3 times I got hit in the head or in my right arm ( an equivalent of a trunk). Thus, any elephant doing the same would hurt his trunk and head mercilessly. Any forumite wishing to repeat the experiment with a medium size iron chain is welcome to it. Just do not say I did not warn you. This is why Charney’s description of a chain attached to one leg, wrapped around the trunk with the end of it secured by the tip of the trunk seems more sound to me. In effect, the elephant would hit the enemy with a very heavy armored trunk without a risk of hurting itself by the free segment of the chain.

14th December 2018, 01:03 PM	#3
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,651	Ariel, what i admire more (most) in your endeavor is the risk you took to rupture your biceps . On the other hand, it could either be my poor(est) english or the method Mr. Charney described requires some juggling abilities from the part of the elephant .

14th December 2018, 02:23 PM	#4
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,713	Ariel, it is an interesting experiment you have made. When reading the description the old travelers give they are a bit loose, as to how the chain 'trick' was made, so it may have been as you say, the chain was wrapped around the trunk - an armoured trunk so to say.

14th December 2018, 02:45 PM	#5
mahratt Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Russia Posts: 1,042	Very interesting experiment But the only thing he proves is that the person who does this experiment is not an elephant

14th December 2018, 05:11 PM	#6
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Fernando, My guess is that the chain might have been wrapped around by the handlers, and teaching the creature to hold the free end in its trunk tip might have been relatively easier than teaching it to endure self-inflicted pain. The bottom line, we shall never know exactly the particulars of elephants' training for war, their tactics, equipment, problems etc. We can only surmise and make our best guesses assuming that our logic is similar to the native one. However, when I try to read Elgood's book on Hindu rituals or discussions in our Kris Forum, I understand how far apart we are.... This art died more than 300 years ago, and we are left with only occasional hearsay accounts by European travellers and snippets of old local stories, both of unproven veracity. The locals did not leave us much: Charney ruefully describes virtual absence of written accounts from SE Asia due to humid climate and insects. Even more durable antiquities fare not better: I went to the Royal Palace in Bangkok to see their collection of old weapons. They were all nicely arranged outside in the open shelving and covered in red rust. Ain't no Louvre or British Library, folks....

14th December 2018, 06:43 PM	#7
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,048	This has been an interesting and "freewheeling" discussion but has strayed a long way from the original topic of "elephant swords." Chains and how to restrain elephants, etc. is some distance from the OP. Perhaps we could get back to Jens initial ideas. Ian.