Caucasian? dagger

kwiatek · 9th August 2021, 02:45 PM

It says

Muhammad Ja'far 1213 (1798-9 AD)

AHorsa · 9th August 2021, 04:21 PM

Great thank you! Would this be the name of the original owner, if one assume that the inscription is right?

kwiatek · 9th August 2021, 05:40 PM

Pleasure! Yes, I think is is the owner's name

ariel · 10th August 2021, 11:22 PM

It is a Khandjar , Persian or North Indian. Velvet covering of the scabbard makes me put North India first. I have never seen any Caucasia weapon bearing a name Muhammad Ja’far, it just did not belong there.The broken handle is likely original. Most Khandjars in the museum collections have walrus, ivory or silver handles. But museums tend to exhibit weapons of rich and famous, a minority of the general population; those who were not very rich were very happy with a dagger with good blade and modest handle.
There was an article in a Russian journal , claiming that the presence of a non-walrus handle or even a walrus one but with the granulated layer adjacent to the tang of a shamshir is a sure sign of replacement. I would disagree with that statement. IMHO, it is just a sign of limited means or personal taste.

I have no objective reason to believe that the date is spurious.

AHorsa · 11th August 2021, 01:18 PM

Great Ariel! Thanks a lot for bringing light into the darkness of its geographical background!
Do you think the scabbard (or its covering) is the original one or has it been replaced during the time?

Kind regards
Andreas

Kubur · 11th August 2021, 05:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

It is a Khandjar , Persian or North Indian.

I have no objective reason to believe that the date is spurious.

I agree with Ariel about Iran, or Indo Persian, but the cooper /gold inlay of the inscription and the scabbard tip are similar to Iranian khanjar from 1900.
So for me, the inscription is ??? spurious...

Kubur · 11th August 2021, 06:06 PM

No offense, but
Muhammad Ja'far was doing top notch objects

https://collections.vam.ac.uk/search...%2c%20Muhammad

So for me it is more a revival of a classic, like a Chanel bag made in China.

More seriously it is a very good counterexample of the dha that I posted, inscriptions can say a lot but they need to be tested in context.

I probably lost half of the forum members on that one

I forgot, you have a very nice dagger!

kwiatek · 11th August 2021, 07:22 PM

Muhammad Ja’far is a very common name in many places and there is no indication this is meant to be the maker rather than the owner

9th August 2021, 02:45 PM	#1
kwiatek Member Join Date: May 2019 Posts: 153	It says Muhammad Ja'far 1213 (1798-9 AD)

9th August 2021, 04:21 PM	#2
AHorsa Member Join Date: May 2014 Location: Rhineland Posts: 363	Great thank you! Would this be the name of the original owner, if one assume that the inscription is right?

9th August 2021, 05:40 PM	#3
kwiatek Member Join Date: May 2019 Posts: 153	Pleasure! Yes, I think is is the owner's name

10th August 2021, 11:22 PM	#4
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	It is a Khandjar , Persian or North Indian. Velvet covering of the scabbard makes me put North India first. I have never seen any Caucasia weapon bearing a name Muhammad Ja’far, it just did not belong there.The broken handle is likely original. Most Khandjars in the museum collections have walrus, ivory or silver handles. But museums tend to exhibit weapons of rich and famous, a minority of the general population; those who were not very rich were very happy with a dagger with good blade and modest handle. There was an article in a Russian journal , claiming that the presence of a non-walrus handle or even a walrus one but with the granulated layer adjacent to the tang of a shamshir is a sure sign of replacement. I would disagree with that statement. IMHO, it is just a sign of limited means or personal taste. I have no objective reason to believe that the date is spurious.

11th August 2021, 01:18 PM	#5
AHorsa Member Join Date: May 2014 Location: Rhineland Posts: 363	Great Ariel! Thanks a lot for bringing light into the darkness of its geographical background! Do you think the scabbard (or its covering) is the original one or has it been replaced during the time? Kind regards Andreas

11th August 2021, 06:06 PM	#7
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	No offense, but Muhammad Ja'far was doing top notch objects https://collections.vam.ac.uk/search...%2c%20Muhammad So for me it is more a revival of a classic, like a Chanel bag made in China. More seriously it is a very good counterexample of the dha that I posted, inscriptions can say a lot but they need to be tested in context. I probably lost half of the forum members on that one I forgot, you have a very nice dagger!

11th August 2021, 07:22 PM	#8
kwiatek Member Join Date: May 2019 Posts: 153	Muhammad Ja’far is a very common name in many places and there is no indication this is meant to be the maker rather than the owner