Medieval sword - opinions needed

cornelistromp · 8th February 2024, 10:59 AM

Unfortunately, I cannot report anything additional than what has already been said.
Forgeries are made so faithfully that not much can be said about them based on photos alone.
That the patina does not dissolve is a good sign. If you want to be a little more certain, as Lee suggested, you can send a small chip from the shoulder or cutting edge for microscopic examination for inclusions.
However, unfortunately it only says something meaningful if new steel has been used.

X-ray can also provide more clarity, perhaps inscriptions are visible, including, for example info of the construction of the tang to the blade. Furthermore I would still advise to follow the trail of the story, any additional info will help.

best,

cornelistromp · 10th February 2024, 10:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cornelistromp

Unfortunately, I cannot report anything additional than what has already been said.
Forgeries are made so faithfully that not much can be said about them based on photos alone.
That the patina does not dissolve is a good sign. If you want to be a little more certain, as Lee suggested, you can send a small chip from the shoulder or cutting edge for microscopic examination for inclusions.
However, unfortunately it only says something meaningful if new steel has been used.

X-ray can also provide more clarity, perhaps inscriptions are visible, including, for example info of the construction of the tang to the blade. Furthermore I would still advise to follow the trail of the story, any additional info will help.

best,

edit 10-02
I have studied some different surface photos, details and dimensions that have been sent to me and I have to say that it looks promising that this could indeed be an original piece.
I'm curious about the further search and confirmations.
best
Jasper

Raf · 10th February 2024, 02:12 PM

Hi Andreas. Pleased you found my comments helpfull. If you decide to experiment mind how you go . Electrolisis releases both oxygen and hydrogen and potentially harmful gasses. Maybe a long shot but is occurred to me that an artificially patinated surface might contain traces of the electolite used. Washing soda is extremely alkaline with a pH level of 11. So if it was possible to test the corrosion a low PH might suggest that the patina was not artificially induced. Im leaning to the view that your sword is genuine.

AHorsa · 11th February 2024, 07:54 PM

Thank you very much gentlemen! I am happy to hear / read that!

AHorsa · 15th February 2024, 08:56 PM

Dear All,

today I had the opportunity to do an x-ray and I´d love to share the two findings of this analysis:

- the guard is folded

- the black structures (less dense material) on the pommel do not correlate with corrosion pittings. My assumption is, that this could be impuritises or inclusions. Maybe the carbon was not hammered out proper of this "lump" of steel?

But I have no idea if this means something. Maybe one of you can tell more on it.

Kind regards
Andreas

Raf · 15th February 2024, 09:32 PM

I would be happy with that. I was impressed by the way the pommel has been fitted so closely to the tang. As if the pommel had been drilled, heated and driven on to the cold tang. I dont know wether a faker would bother with this kind of invisible detail.

Lee · 16th February 2024, 01:44 AM

Just as the crossguard shows darker (more radiolucent) areas of less density suggesting old weld or fold lines from the forging process, the pommel also likely has such areas within its mass that appear as these darker spots in this view, but might look more like imperfect welds if the pommel were rotated 90 degrees.

Also, the blade appears to show more corrosive loss than the hilt elements or tang. This may reflect a different composition of material and perhaps protection for a while longer by a covering guard and is not unusual in my experience.

15th February 2024, 08:56 PM	#5
AHorsa Member Join Date: May 2014 Location: Rhineland Posts: 363	Dear All, today I had the opportunity to do an x-ray and I´d love to share the two findings of this analysis: - the guard is folded - the black structures (less dense material) on the pommel do not correlate with corrosion pittings. My assumption is, that this could be impuritises or inclusions. Maybe the carbon was not hammered out proper of this "lump" of steel? But I have no idea if this means something. Maybe one of you can tell more on it. Kind regards Andreas Attached Images Last edited by AHorsa; 16th February 2024 at 09:24 AM.

8th February 2024, 10:59 AM	#1
cornelistromp Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 1,057	Unfortunately, I cannot report anything additional than what has already been said. Forgeries are made so faithfully that not much can be said about them based on photos alone. That the patina does not dissolve is a good sign. If you want to be a little more certain, as Lee suggested, you can send a small chip from the shoulder or cutting edge for microscopic examination for inclusions. However, unfortunately it only says something meaningful if new steel has been used. X-ray can also provide more clarity, perhaps inscriptions are visible, including, for example info of the construction of the tang to the blade. Furthermore I would still advise to follow the trail of the story, any additional info will help. best,

10th February 2024, 02:12 PM	#3
Raf Member Join Date: Nov 2013 Posts: 238	Hi Andreas. Pleased you found my comments helpfull. If you decide to experiment mind how you go . Electrolisis releases both oxygen and hydrogen and potentially harmful gasses. Maybe a long shot but is occurred to me that an artificially patinated surface might contain traces of the electolite used. Washing soda is extremely alkaline with a pH level of 11. So if it was possible to test the corrosion a low PH might suggest that the patina was not artificially induced. Im leaning to the view that your sword is genuine.

11th February 2024, 07:54 PM	#4
AHorsa Member Join Date: May 2014 Location: Rhineland Posts: 363	Thank you very much gentlemen! I am happy to hear / read that!

15th February 2024, 09:32 PM	#6
Raf Member Join Date: Nov 2013 Posts: 238	I would be happy with that. I was impressed by the way the pommel has been fitted so closely to the tang. As if the pommel had been drilled, heated and driven on to the cold tang. I dont know wether a faker would bother with this kind of invisible detail.

16th February 2024, 01:44 AM	#7
Lee EAAF Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Upstate New York, USA Posts: 896	Just as the crossguard shows darker (more radiolucent) areas of less density suggesting old weld or fold lines from the forging process, the pommel also likely has such areas within its mass that appear as these darker spots in this view, but might look more like imperfect welds if the pommel were rotated 90 degrees. Also, the blade appears to show more corrosive loss than the hilt elements or tang. This may reflect a different composition of material and perhaps protection for a while longer by a covering guard and is not unusual in my experience.