Ethnographic Arms & Armour
 

Go Back   Ethnographic Arms & Armour > Discussion Forums > Ethnographic Weapons

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 16th March 2019, 05:08 PM   #1
corrado26
Member
 
corrado26's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Black Forest, Germany
Posts: 1,164
Default Dagger from India?

I've got this dagger today and would like to know where it comes from and how old or modern it may be. The grip is made as far as I can see of horn, the sheeth is from iron with silver decoration. The blade is two-edged with a gold koftgari on both sides. Total length is 282 mm, the blade has 150 mm and is 31 mm wide.
Regards
corrado26
Attached Images
         
corrado26 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16th March 2019, 05:42 PM   #2
A.alnakkas
Member
 
A.alnakkas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Kuwait
Posts: 1,336
Default

This style is a Lebanese style. Most are coming from Jezzine, Lebanon but in far lesser quality. The one you show is probably the best I have seen but there are a few things to point out. The scabbard is of typical Syrian construction. It is not uncommon to see daggers from other parts of the Levant having editions done in Syria.

I also think that this dagger had very recent editions, likely done by one of the Syrian swordmakers who migrated to Lebanon after the Syrian civil war. But I could be wrong here.

Though the best feature is the blade, likely a heirloom and VERY well made.

Let me know if you ever wanted to part with it.
A.alnakkas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16th March 2019, 06:10 PM   #3
corrado26
Member
 
corrado26's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Black Forest, Germany
Posts: 1,164
Default

Many thanks for your very interesting explanations I'd never thought of Lebanon or Syria. If I ever want to part with it, I'll contact you, promised!
corrado26
corrado26 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16th March 2019, 06:11 PM   #4
ariel
Member
 
ariel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
Posts: 5,503
Default

Agree : Lebanon.
And, BTW, Syrian silver koftgari is very reminiscent of the one we have discussed in the Pala topic.
ariel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17th March 2019, 01:21 AM   #5
motan
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: Jerusalem
Posts: 274
Default

Hi Corrado26,
I agree with Ariel and A.Alnakkas. It is Lebanese. The hilt from a single round piece of horn, the thin ferrule that connects the hilt and the blade and guard, or guard-like piece with the pointy middle that fits in the groove of the hilt are 100% Lebanese, and most probably from the Jezzine area.
It is not very old, but I see no reason to assume that it is recent. To me, it looks more like it has been cleaned with too much enthusiasm.
I also see a mix with Syrian elements - the blade looks Syrian and similar to some that of Majdali daggers of the round handle type. The scabbard also looks Syrian, but the point is a general Ottoman feature.
I have seen mixes of Lebanese and Syrian styles before and that should not be surprising. The separation of Syria and Lebanon as countries dates to the French mandate. Majdal Shams and Jezzine are not much further apart than a day's march on foot. It is known that many inhabitants of Majdal worked in the timber industry in Lebanon and had many contacts there.
Anyway, it is a very nice piece and I would't mind having it myself.
I added pictures of two daggers that are not similar to yours, but show a similar mixture of styles.
Attached Images
  
motan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17th March 2019, 08:38 AM   #6
corrado26
Member
 
corrado26's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Black Forest, Germany
Posts: 1,164
Default

Many thanks but please tell me how this item has to be called?
corrado26
corrado26 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17th March 2019, 08:52 AM   #7
A.alnakkas
Member
 
A.alnakkas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Kuwait
Posts: 1,336
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by corrado26
Many thanks but please tell me how this item has to be called?
corrado26
Lebanese dagger? :-)
A.alnakkas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17th March 2019, 10:03 AM   #8
Kubur
Member
 
Kubur's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 2,145
Default

Modern Lebanese Majdali
I let to Motan the definition of the Majdali, but I assume that it's a Lebanese / Druze local variation...
Kubur is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17th March 2019, 12:56 PM   #9
ariel
Member
 
ariel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
Posts: 5,503
Default

Agree with A. alnakkas: just “ Lebanese Dagger”:-) Although one can legitimately call it "Jezzine dagger".


Majal Shams is a Druze village at the Golan Heights. It has its own style of daggers that is unmistakably characteristic: spool-like handle made of multicolored stacked elements. Due to its souvenir popularity and the fact that Golan Heights are currently in Israel similar daggers are now manufactured in other places in Syria and Lebanon.

Lebanese style largely stems from Maronite Christian workshop in Jezzine, established by Haddad family some 250 years ago. Haddad work became so famous that it earned an article in the National Geographic in 1958. Older examples carry handles similar to the one shown here. Its currently most popular style has a Phoenix-like handle mostly used for expensive cutlery sets. I suspect that by now other workshops are imitating Haddad knives.

These two styles are very distinct and should not be used in one sentence. The only common feature is a curved blade.

Here are pics: older style Jezzine dagger, current most popular Haddad knives and Majal Shams Druze dagger.
Attached Images
   

Last edited by ariel; 17th March 2019 at 01:18 PM.
ariel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17th March 2019, 01:05 PM   #10
A.alnakkas
Member
 
A.alnakkas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Kuwait
Posts: 1,336
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kubur
Modern Lebanese Majdali
I let to Motan the definition of the Majdali, but I assume that it's a Lebanese / Druze local variation...
Nope. The style is specific to Jezzine, southern Lebanon. Has nothing to do with Majdalshams. Scabbard is likely done in Damascus or.... Beirut.
A.alnakkas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17th March 2019, 01:19 PM   #11
A.alnakkas
Member
 
A.alnakkas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Kuwait
Posts: 1,336
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ariel
Agree with A. alnakkas: just “ Lebanese Dagger”:-) Although one can legitimately call it "Jezzine dagger".


Majal Shams is a Druze village at the Golan Heights. It has its own style of daggers that is unmistakably characteristic: spool-like handle made of multicolored stacked elements. Due to its souvenir popularity and the fact that Golan Heights are currently in Israel similar daggers are now manufactured in other places in Syria and Lebanon.

Lebanese style largely stems from Maronite Christian workshop in Jezzine, established by Haddad family some 250 years ago. Haddad work became so famous that it earned an article in the National Geographic in 1958. Older examples carry handles similar to the one shown here. Its currently most popular style has a Phoenix-like handle. I suspect that by now other workshops are imitating Haddad knives.

These two styles are very distinct and should not be used in one sentence. The only common feature is a curved blade.

Here are pics: older style Jezzine dagger, current most popular Haddad dagger and Majal Shams Druze dagger.
While I agree in general with this assessment; the majdali dagger to begin with is not really only a majdali dagger. Production through out Syria produce different styles, some in De'raa and Damascus, even Aleppo and Deir alZor. While I managed to track the sources, I cant pinpoint which style belongs where.

There are also various images of Bedouins in Palestine and the Syrian desert with those daggers. Arabs did not wear weapons with any religious prejudice. You will find that even items attributed to Nejd worn by famous Druze characters.

I own a shibriya, of outstanding quality, made by a Nejdi sword maker to a Druze prince. Things are not as simple as they seem :-)
A.alnakkas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17th March 2019, 03:42 PM   #12
motan
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: Jerusalem
Posts: 274
Default

Hi Ariel,
Nice lesson in history, and verifiable too. However, I did make some valid points and shown the examples to go with them. You can not deny that the blade and koftgiri, as well as the type of scabbard of Corrad26's look Syrian. Further, the Lebanese style was not invented by Haddad, but developed from more diverse local types in Lebanon, some of which were influenced by Syrian style. It would be strange if it was not so.

I want to take this opportunity to clarify a misconception about Majdali daggers. True, similar daggers were made in other part of Syria already early on. However, Majdal Shams had two main types: one which you showed in your post and the other had blades more similar to Corrado26's dagger, as shown in the pictures below.
The misconception is that only the ones with broad hilt, heavy blade and decoration etched in the base of the blade (like the ones you show) are genuine Majdali daggers. The type in the pictures was made in Majdal Shams, at least from 1910 (the oldest I have seen with date) and many are signed with the village name on the blade. You can look in Artzi's site under Magdali.
Attached Images
  
motan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17th March 2019, 04:00 PM   #13
motan
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: Jerusalem
Posts: 274
Default

An example of an older Lebanese dagger - unfortunately, I fell asleep during the auction.
Attached Images
 
motan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17th March 2019, 07:40 PM   #14
ariel
Member
 
ariel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
Posts: 5,503
Default

Hi Motan,
I was intentionally brief and your comments filled the gaps. Many thanks!
ariel is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 12:49 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Posts are regarded as being copyrighted by their authors and the act of posting material is deemed to be a granting of an irrevocable nonexclusive license for display here.