Garuda Kris

[David]

Originally Posted by SanibelSwassa

So in these pictures…(all from my collection &#128521 what is the symbolism for the highlighted area??

I'll throw this link into the mix for you to ponder. While this theory received some amount of resistance if i recall properly i am somewhat drawn to it, though i cannot say it is at all conclusive. But i would suggest that your highlighted areas are representative of wings, but perhaps not in the orientation that you are expecting. I have not yet found there to be any significant evidence that the kakatu (cockatoo) bird has any cultural significance to Moro peoples, so using it in abstract for the pommel design on not one, but two of their most iconic weapons (Kris and Barung) seems a bit strange. But we can indeed find significance in the legend of the Sarimanok and when exampled with the blade pointing upward we can see a very clear abstract of a bird that quite resembles the Sarimanok.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ight=sarimanok

[xasterix]

Originally Posted by David

I'll throw this link into the mix for you to ponder. While this theory received some amount of resistance if i recall properly i am somewhat drawn to it, though i cannot say it is at all conclusive. But i would suggest that your highlighted areas are representative of wings, but perhaps not in the orientation that you are expecting. I have not yet found there to be any significant evidence that the kakatu (cockatoo) bird has any cultural significance to Moro peoples, so using it in abstract for the pommel design on not one, but two of their most iconic weapons (Kris and Barung) seems a bit strange. But we can indeed find significance in the legend of the Sarimanok and when exampled with the blade pointing upward we can see a very clear abstract of a bird that quite resembles the Sarimanok.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ight=sarimanok

That's an interesting theory. But with regard to pattern, I think that upside-down pommel matches this better. You can even 1:1 the "mouth" of the drawn naga and circular design above its head, with the outline of the upside-down pommel itself.

[David]

Originally Posted by xasterix

That's an interesting theory. But with regard to pattern, I think that upside-down pommel matches this better. You can even 1:1 the "mouth" of the drawn naga and circular design above its head, with the outline of the upside-down pommel itself.

We all see what we want to see i guess. Frankly i don't see that much of a match with your naga drawing and to my eyes this pommel clearly looks like a bird.
Also, let's remember this is a 3-dimensional object. Comparing this to a 2-D drawing doesn't show the full extent of the shape for a good comparison. If we look at these pommels from the top and image that we are looking up at the bottom of a bird's body in flight it also clearly looks like a bird.

[xasterix]

Originally Posted by David

We all see what we want to see i guess. Frankly i don't see that much of a match with your naga drawing and to my eyes this pommel clearly looks like a bird.
Also, let's remember this is a 3-dimensional object. Comparing this to a 2-D drawing doesn't show the full extent of the shape for a good comparison. If we look at these pommels from the top and image that we are looking up at the bottom of a bird's body in flight it also clearly looks like a bird.

We can always look at the culturally-accurate depictions: in this case, the original pattern as conceptualized by Bangsamoro hands. Here's an excerpt from the book "Ukkil: Visual Arts of the Sulu Archipelago" by Ligaya Fernando-Amilbangsa (2006). These ukkil patterns existed in Bangsamoro infrastructure and grave markers as early as 1600s (some sources say even way before this date).

As you can see...the resemblance is murky if you flip the kris pommel. I would have agreed with you that it MAY represent a sarimanuk if it's the right way up (blade pointing down).

You'll also notice how closely related the naga and sarimanuk patterns are.

I'll prefer to stick to the naga interpretation though- because one of my kris pommels is obviously a snake-head.

[SanibelSwassa]

Originally Posted by David

We all see what we want to see i guess. Frankly i don't see that much of a match with your naga drawing and to my eyes this pommel clearly looks like a bird.
Also, let's remember this is a 3-dimensional object. Comparing this to a 2-D drawing doesn't show the full extent of the shape for a good comparison. If we look at these pommels from the top and image that we are looking up at the bottom of a bird's body in flight it also clearly looks like a bird.

David,

I think the relevance of this part of the discussion is significant IMHO. As we are in agreement that the symbol that we are calling either a wing… which is my personal belief, or maybe an eye if you are seeing the hilt as the Birds head with a crest and a beak. Either way the commonality in both the “Garuda” kris and the traditional kris can assist us in creating working hypothesis to test regarding some of these questions.

For example if we see the symbol as a wing(my starting hypothesis) then the directionality of the overall structure is potentially identifiable as the Garuda kris is only viewable as a form with the blade tip pointed down. It also has a definable front, back, sides and top. The wing symbols are clearly on the “sides” of the structure. This then gives us an point of reference for both the traditional Moro structure and the Garuda form. “If” the meaning for the symbol and the location are defined then the other symbols under consideration can be defined more reliably.

This pic below may allow us to continue that discussion productively.

Obviously the Garuda form is more figurative.

[SanibelSwassa]

Another form for comparison.

[Rick]

Originally Posted by David

I'll throw this link into the mix for you to ponder. While this theory received some amount of resistance if i recall properly i am somewhat drawn to it, though i cannot say it is at all conclusive. But i would suggest that your highlighted areas are representative of wings, but perhaps not in the orientation that you are expecting. I have not yet found there to be any significant evidence that the kakatu (cockatoo) bird has any cultural significance to Moro peoples, so using it in abstract for the pommel design on not one, but two of their most iconic weapons (Kris and Barung) seems a bit strange. But we can indeed find significance in the legend of the Sarimanok and when exampled with the blade pointing upward we can see a very clear abstract of a bird that quite resembles the Sarimanok.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ight=sarimanok

Also when wielded the beak here is oriented to the cutting edge of the first blow.
What would a bird defend or attack with, the beak, I think.
Just a thought.

[xasterix]

Sorry to throw this in guys... but all PH figural hilts should be viewed with the blade pointing down, not up. Whether it's Luzon, Visayas, or Mindanao, all figural pommel samples you'll find are oriented that way. There's no reason for the kris pommel to be different or "flipped" for viewing.

[SanibelSwassa]

Originally Posted by xasterix

Sorry to throw this in guys... but all PH figural hilts should be viewed with the blade pointing down, not up. Whether it's Luzon, Visayas, or Mindanao, all figural pommel samples you'll find are oriented that way. There's no reason for the kris pommel to be different or "flipped" for viewing.

I agree and believe the Garuda kris form confirms this orientation. However, I also agree with David’s assertion that the symbol in the side of the form is most likely a wing.

With that defined we can begin to examine the other symbols on the “Garuda” kris that diverge from the more traditional Moro form. This is where I hope other forum members can assist in deciphering their origins and meanings, with the hope that leads us closer to the group of smiths and people that venerated this kris form.

Below are pics for the front, back, and top of two of the kris I own for discussions.
And while I am labeling this “Garuda”, forum members should feel free to present alternative or conflicting hypothesis. Delving into the symbols and their origins is my line of focus.

[SanibelSwassa]

To better establish the linkage back to the cultural influences from the Hindu/Buddhist contacts with the Malay area I am supplying a paper on studying the carvings of the area. Given the overlay of the Muslim influence perhaps we can see the potential for the Garuda as the source for this interesting form.

[SanibelSwassa]

Here are a interesting pieces with floral motifs that are similar, however the Islamic art from the same time periods also have similar motifs.

[xasterix]

Originally Posted by SanibelSwassa

To better establish the linkage back to the cultural influences from the Hindu/Buddhist contacts with the Malay area I am supplying a paper on studying the carvings of the area. Given the overlay of the Muslim influence perhaps we can see the potential for the Garuda as the source for this interesting form.

Mr SanibelSwassa, I talked with a Malaysian keris collector and an Iranun friend who's also based in Malaysia. According to both of them, while the Indomalay-looking hilts that we have may seem related to keris, they're only roughly reminiscent Jawa Demam form; but symbolically, they agreed that our hilts represented a 'dragon'- in other words, a naga. And- this is most important- that they were made in the Philippines, and not elsewhere in the Malay archipelago.

When I asked about the standard and junggayan kakatua form, they said different people viewed it differently; same as in Sulu and Mindanao. Some will say it's a naga, while others will say it's a garuda. To them, it can be either, or both.

[xasterix]

As supporting evidence that this indomalay-style hilt was made in the Philippines- I noticed that the insignia carved into my kris butt pommel perfectly corresponds to the recurring okir structural pattern of a torogan, the traditional Maranao royal residence for nobility. It was reserved for the datu or sultan. This pattern is exclusive to the Bangsamoro.

[Gavin Nugent]

Originally Posted by David

I'll throw this link into the mix for you to ponder. While this theory received some amount of resistance if i recall properly i am somewhat drawn to it, though i cannot say it is at all conclusive. But i would suggest that your highlighted areas are representative of wings, but perhaps not in the orientation that you are expecting. I have not yet found there to be any significant evidence that the kakatu (cockatoo) bird has any cultural significance to Moro peoples, so using it in abstract for the pommel design on not one, but two of their most iconic weapons (Kris and Barung) seems a bit strange. But we can indeed find significance in the legend of the Sarimanok and when exampled with the blade pointing upward we can see a very clear abstract of a bird that quite resembles the Sarimanok.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ight=sarimanok

Coming back to this image and the previous discussion about what the hulu actually could be... I see this image has not been presented to the previous discussion....I've not delved in the the accession of the item, but the iconography is clear to me even if not regionally specific.

The other image, another from online that to my eyes fits within the subgroup too.

[Gavin Nugent]

Originally Posted by David

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ight=sarimanok

I see the icon as such... see annotations within the image.
I see Ian sees it the same way... maybe it is because we are all upside down in AU?
But, TBF, you only have to look at the shadow it casts too....

[Gavin Nugent]

Ok, so, off on a BIG tangent I go, and don't be mean now, the parallels are purely visual speculation but hard to ignore visually.

I got thinking about how I see the Datu Hulu iconography, as seen above with the annotations.

I thought then to delve in to the the headrest image I shared and its point of origins being Cenderawasih Bay... certainly a Sarimanok to my eyes...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cenderawasih_Bay

I went down a totally unfounded but very possible relationship in so far as cartography and the iconic Datu hulu goes, and overarching ancient spiritually belief of this magical bird, as represented by ... The PNG land mass which bares a striking resemblance in new maps and old maps of the period...

Is there something in this mythologically that we are missing?
I've no time today to go further down this rabbit warren in interest... perhaps others can?

From a cartographer point of view, is this very object discussed visually... tell me it's not

[SanibelSwassa]

Originally Posted by Gavin Nugent

Ok, so, off on a BIG tangent I go, and don't be mean now, the parallels are purely visual speculation but hard to ignore visually.

I got thinking about how I see the Datu Hulu iconography, as seen above with the annotations.

I thought then to delve in to the the headrest image I shared and its point of origins being Cenderawasih Bay... certainly a Sarimanok to my eyes...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cenderawasih_Bay

I went down a totally unfounded but very possible relationship in so far as cartography and the iconic Datu hulu goes, and overarching ancient spiritually belief of this magical bird, as represented by ... The PNG land mass which bares a striking resemblance in new maps and old maps of the period...

Is there something in this mythologically that we are missing?
I've no time today to go further down this rabbit warren in interest... perhaps others can?

From a cartographer point of view, is this very object discussed visually... tell me it's not

Gavin,

Wow… the cartography angle is totally wild and I SEE it!!! That would be almost nuts as the makers of the blades could hardly have been able to have conceptually known the similarities. What a rabbit hole!!! I love it!!

[werecow]

Pareidolia can be very strong, but even so that is eerily similar.

[milandro]

Originally Posted by SanibelSwassa

Gavin,

Wow… the cartography angle is totally wild and I SEE it!!! That would be almost nuts as the makers of the blades could hardly have been able to have conceptually known the similarities. What a rabbit hole!!! I love it!!

cartography is ancient , so, it may have been possible...although one would have to wonder why they would have chosen that particular profile among all the islands... if not because Papua New Guinea resembles a Kakatua or Cockatoo .

Now the circle really round

[Gavin Nugent]

Originally Posted by SanibelSwassa

Gavin,

Wow… the cartography angle is totally wild and I SEE it!!! That would be almost nuts as the makers of the blades could hardly have been able to have conceptually known the similarities. What a rabbit hole!!! I love it!!

As Werecow notes, it is an ancient art...

When looking at this map and it's age and date of "publication" in Manila, is it much of a stretch that they knew of the PNG shape? Records show the Malay raided as far as the west coast of PNG.... this may even explain why Twist core was seen as far as Maluku.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sultan...or._Y_Capn.jpg

As a side note, I had some time to read last night and the head rest I supplied the image of is reputed as being a rooster I can see some likeness but as the same time, some aspects don't line up stylistically to my mind.

[Battara]

Originally Posted by Gavin Nugent

As a side note, I had some time to read last night and the head rest I supplied the image of is reputed as being a rooster I can see some likeness but as the same time, some aspects don't line up stylistically to my mind.

To be more accurate, the "other rooster" or sarimanok. It is a stylized mythical rooster from the Moro peoples. So the pommel of the mid 1800s and later resemble more the sarimanok head in the minds of many.

[SanibelSwassa]

Again I would call attention to the representations that are both common and distinct in this form.

1. The floral pattern on the crown of the “Garuda” form are not found in the other Moro Kris hilts, yet the blades on these archaic seem to have elements that would tie them back to the Moro craftsman.

2. The wings on the side profile of many of the pieces I’ve located are typical of the more common forms. This seems to be a linkage that should not be ignored.

3. The front and back of the form have a possible reference to the gateway to “heaven” or the afterlife.

I am personally still draw to a blending of the majority Islamic faith and a mix of Chinese Buddhism or remnant Hindu faith that was still present in the area. But definitely open to thoughts from other members.