Smallsword Info (named Sebastian Ernandes)

[Interested Party]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Fernando thank you again for the detailed notes on the '3' which perfectly explains it as the letter Z in this parlance.
Robert, excellent notes on the nomenclature, which has changed through the centuries and is often confusing

Is this related to the cedilla (ceda) and zeda Çç? I see the cedilla in older Spanish texts, probably into the late 17th maybe early 18th centuries?

Second question: Which of these two diagrams regarding pas d'ane is correct, or is it relative to which language you are discussing sword anatomy in?




PS I answered my own question in part before finishing the post. This tidbit is from Wikipedia:

"Zeta (UK: /ˈziːtə/,[1] US: /ˈzeɪtə/; uppercase Ζ, lowercase ζ; Ancient Greek: ζῆτα, Demotic Greek: ζήτα, classical [d͡zɛ̌:ta] or [zdɛ̌:ta] zē̂ta; Greek pronunciation: [ˈzita] zíta) is the sixth letter of the Greek alphabet. In the system of Greek numerals, it has a value of 7. It was derived from the Phoenician letter zayin Zayin. Letters that arose from zeta include the Roman Z and Cyrillic З."

So... the letter we are discussing to my understanding is basically a lowercase Greek "z" with a diacritical mark?

Fernando the "3" being masculine effects the cidilla/ceda/cedilha, as well in medieval texts?

Edit: Attached is a picture of a zeta. The lower case looks a lot like the various incarnations of what we are discussing.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Interested Party

... Is this related to the cedilla (ceda) and zeda Çç? I see the cedilla in older Spanish texts, probably into the late 17th maybe early 18th centuries?

To put it simple, without digging into academic origins of the alphabet, like the letter Z being rebaptized Zeta by the old Greeks and all, the letter designed by Palomares in his chart, which looks like it doesn't betray the one in the punzones of Sebastian Hernandez, is a minuscle manuscript Z. Perhaps we ought to consider how writing styles were 'flexible' during early periods, specially if sword smiths were not so literate. I understand that, looking at that mark with our modern eyes, we are driven to see a 3 instead of a Z ... which is wrong.
Mind you, if iam talking nonsense don't tie me to whiping post .

Originally Posted by Interested Party

...Second question: Which of these two diagrams regarding pas d'ane is correct, or is it relative to which language you are discussing sword anatomy in?...

Based on the article provided above by Radboud, which perfectly sounds like a reliable source, the legitimate pas d'ane is depicted in post #13 and the misinterpreted one shown inpost #15. Whether its wrong assumption was due to a language miscarriage i wouldn't know, but (free) translating the first paragraphs from the said source we have that:

To avoid further derailing the discussion on the 1788 sword, here is another subject relating to the donkey step.

The donkey step (pas d'ane) is often understood to be the rings present on the hilt of court swords and rapiers.
This is an error which seems to have crept into the vocabulary of collectors in the 19th century. Indeed, if there are very few clear definitions of the term, the most precise is given to us by Sr. Phillibert de la Touche in his famous treatise "The true principles of the sword alone, published in 1670".
De La Touche therefore explains to us here that the guard plate is made up of two pas d'ane, which are its two bivalve parts. The big one and the little one ...
(The whole article is to long to transcribe here).



.

[Jim McDougall]

well put Fernando, as always. Anyone imagining there was any sort of strict adherence to alphabets, spelling or grammar through the centuries and with transliteration, is in for a big surprise.

Arms writers in the 19th century certainly didn't do us any favors. It seems we have spent decades trying to untangle all of these terms, phrases etc. applied to arms and armor in those times . These were, as with much of the 'historical writing', thoroughly laced with 'lore' and misperceptions.

Most of these have been so thoroughly ingrained in the colloquial idioms of the collecting world that it would be a semantic nightmare to try to change them now. Still for serious students of arms, it is good to have these kinds of details to cross refererence...I for one am intently adjusting my notes
Thank you so much guys!

[Interested Party]

Thanks Fernando and Jim. I appreciate your clarification on those two issues. I find the flexibility of the scripts fascinating and enlightening. I somehow thought the numerical value of 7 not to mention the miniscule z sometimes looking vaguely like a European 7 with a line might trigger Jim's talent of global learning.

As an apology for helping to derail this thread I wanted to post pictures with improved visibility of the inscription and sword profile. I also want to ask a question I am surprised that hasn't been asked already, is this a Spanish rapier blade remounted into an English small sword hilt? Maybe I'm just a bit obtuse.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Interested Party

... I also want to ask a question I am surprised that hasn't been asked already, is this a Spanish rapier blade remounted into an English small sword hilt? Maybe I'm just a bit obtuse.

My post #6 was somehow an approach on how tricky smiths names may be an indication of authorship by judging on the the spelling of their names on blades. This blade looks like top grade. It would take an expert to define whether it is a true work of Sebastian Hernandez. With my ignorance, it does look so.

[Interested Party]

Originally Posted by fernando

My post #6 was somehow an approach on how tricky smiths names may be an indication of authorship by judging on the the spelling of their names on blades. This blade looks like top grade. It would take an expert to define whether it is a true work of Sebastian Hernandez. With my ignorance, it does look so.

Rather than exact workshop, I am asking if this blade profile looks in the Spanish style. Does the hilt look English with its grip and pommel or French in its donkey's hoof guard? I would think it is an older blade and newer hilt, I assume in its working life. I have not seen dimensions of the sword and blade so I have been looking and wondering is it shortened? How does its tip move? By its look I would guess it parries well, but is the tip slow? The pommel is big enough that it could possibly balance the blade.

& Fernando I think you are being overly modest.

Rogerfox welcome. It will be nice to have a mail specialist to answer question at the forum.

[Jim McDougall]

It seems we have been remiss in not formally welcoming Roger to the forum, and especially for bringing in such a great example small sword for discussion. The best thing with this forum has always been the sharing of such examples by members and the discussion, with which we all learn, together.

The entries Radboud has placed here on the proper nomenclature are remarkable! and a perfect example of how we all continue to learn by sharing here. Though I have obsessively studied arms history for more years than I can say exactly, I often still feel a novice as there is so much to learn, and only a network of specialists such as reside here can possibly answer the countless questions that come with every unique discovery.
Nobody can effectively know everything obviously, but collectively the resounding strength of the comprehensive knowledge here is formidable.

To that, I.P., your questions are well placed as are your observations, and you are absolutely in no way, obtuse!

In my opinion, this seems certainly appears to be a German made rapier blade which is of heirloom quality and a likely of course about mid 17th century. The most compelling indicators are of course the spelling of the name, as well as the punctuating 'x's which were a well established convention it seems with Solingen blades. It should be noted as far as 'Spanish style', in the mid 17th century, Toledo was effectively in decline and all but defunct by the end of the century. The innovative German smiths were adept at duplicating not only the features and style of the Spanish blades, but readily adopted and spuriously applied the names and markings accordingly. I actually have a rapier blade which came from a shipwreck dating in 1690s intended to represent a Toledo maker (Aiala) but with atypical Spanish punzone, thus clearly a Solingen product.

The hilt is English and of latter 18th century, and of the faceted cut steel fashion associated primarily with Matthew Boulton in Soho at that time.
While the small sword in this period was regarded as 'in decline' as far as a fashionable accoutrement in gentleman's wear, fencing had become powerfully popular. In England fencing masters such as Angelo had brought the art into high dimension.

Regarding the bilobate guard, which is of course typical of the small sword, this shape and style was ubiquitously used in these type swords in virtually all countries using the small sword. While commonly called a shell guard colloquially, the rather colorful term describing 'donkeys hoof' (pas d'ane) is simply the apparently proper nomenclature. So the guard would not denote French origin of the hilt, and what is so notably hard about identifying small swords is the universality of the hilt elements.

It seems likely that in the gentry, those who were deeply enamored of the fencing art might well have desired a sword in the high fashion of the time mounted with a fine rapier blade in use in the period of the high masters of the previous century. Whether actually used or not, the profound status of such a sword would be proudly worn, and no doubt, such a blade shown off in accord.

The hubris and obsession with prestige and status of these times in the end of the 18th into the early 19th century in the gentry are often not well realized, but one case in point that I think a good illustration would be the renowned Beau Brummel. While not saying this sword has anything to do with him obviously, the analogy is to illustrate what I mean.

As far as the swords functionality, it is of course hard to say without handling it, but I would presume it would handle well as required. Remember these were worn primarily as elements of fashion, but could be used, mostly as a deterrent, in self defense. In the business of dueling, which is sketchy at best, most likely epee or saber specifically intended would be employed.

In all, a MOST attractive and historically intriguing example!

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Interested Party

Rather than exact workshop, I am asking if this blade profile looks in the Spanish style.

As i said, it would take a rather experienced person to define such attribution; as the smith's punzones are potentialy hidden by that adapted tang ferrule. Not so easy to judge by the blade style, as different masters didn't follow a Toledo pattern but worked on their own blade profiles. In reading Lhermite, one tends to understand that Hernandez recasso blades were mainly 'llanos' but also 'buhidos', two swords i can not find in any Spanish dictionaries nor in the Web. Perhaps 'llana' means plain, flat (?). Let us realize that they were mostly 'wide', if i read correctly GERMÁN DUEÑAS BERAIZ paper. Wait until some knowledged member says this is not a Spanish blade. As in my perspective this is indeed Spanish ... and forged by Sebastian Hrnandez. That cut steel hilt is in no way Spanish, i would say; but i will leave such question to Jim.

PS
Posts crossed with Jim. I take long to essay texts (in English) before submiting them