A result of ivory regulations ???

corrado26 · 22nd January 2024, 02:15 PM

These laws, which completely miss the intended goal, are the result when incompetents without any necessary training call the shots in an institution like the EU Parliament

Sajen · 22nd January 2024, 02:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by corrado26

These laws, which completely miss the intended goal, are the result when incompetents without any necessary training call the shots in an institution like the EU Parliament

Agree with you Udo! But when I go to the States there are similar problems with antique ivory. And the two Burmese dhas had been auctioned in GB and I know that the law there is more bad as in the EU.

Regards,
Detlef

Gavin Nugent · 22nd January 2024, 03:36 PM

I think there is a lot too much speculation as was to what hilts these blades had. Some were silver and ray skin over bamboo, others were silver and Niello.

Personally, I feel the speculation, and where discussions are turning to, will cause far more bluster and fluff than any good to the forum.

Nothing is going to change in this space, and just or unjust from a collectors point of view, or any speculation or discussion on the subject of what is not known for certain holds even less water within the current landscape.
This is just sensationalism for sensationalism sake and a rehash of the subject that has been broached here numerous times.

Live trade still happens. As recent as this week I have seen it on social media and other media. The issue is not going away.

Agree or disagree, we are all entitled to opinions, for me. I see ongoing speculations or even instances of it being removed by governing bodies, that it will do the community here no good at all.

Ian · 23rd January 2024, 05:19 AM

Gav, I'm frankly surprised by your post. Yes, everyone is entitled to an opinion, and you have expressed disagreement with statements here condemning some aspects of the attempts to diminish the trade in elephant ivory and other prohibited species. It's not clear to me how such statements do a disservice to collectors.

My concern is more with the opportunistic dealer who crudely removes a hilt to make a few dollars. Look at the second example shown below, where the crafted ferrule has been cut almost completely through with a pair of tin snips or similar tool, and then left hanging there. Crude and crass! Totally without a sense of the aesthetics of the piece and its craftsmanship. I agree that these things happen out of necessity in poorer nations where individuals are struggling to survive and antiques represent an opportunity to make a little money. That's more understandable. But this piece was offered at auction in Britain, a prosperous first world nation.

The title of this forum is Ethnographic Weapons. To me, that means items crafted in a traditional manner from traditional materials by those from the original culture. Sometimes these may contain prohibited materials (such as ivory). In my view, such cultural artifacts created before, say, 1970 and containing prohibited materials should be permitted to remain intact and be traded. Those made after that time should not be traded. However, the rules are very different. Nevertheless, there are exceptions, and we, as collectors, should be able to avail ourselves of those exceptions without undue burden. That is not the case, and I think people have a right (and obligation) to vent frustration at that situation because cultural items are being damaged or destroyed as a result of undue bureaucracy.

I don't think my views are harmful in any way to collectors here or as a whole. (Rant over)

Gavin Nugent · 23rd January 2024, 06:44 AM

Ian,

Indeed, vent your frustration at the global situation and the hypocrisy that abounds in that space. Where these are concerned specifically, it is all speculation within.

You have ZERO idea about the who, what, how, and why these blades were presented to an auction without hilts that could be any manner of materials, the whole notion seem absurd without a crystal ball or a time machine with coordinates to get to when and where this happened.... Even the notion of tin snips, it is simply all speculation... surely the 3 question marks you used in the title, you must also have seen this as speculation which is only going to induce hype..

As for the diservices. Whilst not a direct POV to what I wrote, Lee knocked that nail on the head September last year in these pages, and it goes a LOT wider and deeper than that quick note.
If you want to know what is actually happening and how, and it's impacts, feel free to write me privately, and factually.

Gavin

asomotif · 2nd February 2024, 11:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gavin Nugent

I think there is a lot too much speculation as was to what hilts these blades had. Some were silver and ray skin over bamboo, others were silver and Niello.
.

A lot of threads on the forum are largely speculation.
Where do you think this ... is from ?
How old is this ... ?

Hardly ever do I see someone refering to the autum Dha catalogue of 1832

These hilts could have been removed or harvested for other reasons.
Fact is that they are damaged and devalued by it which is a pity.

thomas hauschild · 3rd February 2024, 06:34 AM

Yes a pitty.Newly in germany we have new laws about elephant ivory since a few month. Every trade ist strictly forbidden now. No matter if pieces are pre CITES or not.

I have around 10 pieces from a collector. Just grips and matching scabbards from badik, rencong and kris. That collector emigrates back from switzerland ( outside EU) and he wanted to save the rest of his collection. Customs pushed him to destroy these blades cause they defined them as „push-daggers“, which are forbidden items in germany.

A pitty

gp · 3rd February 2024, 08:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thomas hauschild

Yes a pitty.Newly in germany we have new laws about elephant ivory since a few month. Every trade ist strictly forbidden now. No matter if pieces are pre CITES or not.

I have around 10 pieces from a collector. Just grips and matching scabbards from badik, rencong and kris. That collector emigrates back from switzerland ( outside EU) and he wanted to save the rest of his collection. Customs pushed him to destroy these blades cause they defined them as „push-daggers“, which are forbidden items in germany.

A pitty

Sad this example but a piece of advise; one should not & never accept the word of a single customs officer just like that as being the one and only ultimate truth and being forced into something awfull like the above mentioned example!

Customs rules and regulations are not a matter decided by a single officer or the individual interpretation of a certain rule by that officer.
I am not saying at all, that the specific customs officer doesn't know his job...
but being a customs specialist, I can tell you that not all is defined and firm because just one person (or even his superior) says so! As there is more to it than meets the eye.

It is just an interpretation of the rule by an operational man or woman, who who is not actually a legislator / lawmaker or a lawyer !
Not wanted to disrespect and offend these officers who do an excellent job!

It takes too much time and knowledge of the subject to explain it into detail, but short & simple :

1. If one can state his case and substantiate this with proof, it can and will be be accepted by the customs. Customs specialist can fill you in with the details if you want to learn more.
Obviously you need to make a stronge case AND provide excellent professional proof that supports your case conform the customs regulations and legislation.

2. If # 1 still will produce a negative result, you should withdraw the import and look for an alternative legal way to proceed.
And believe me, there are plenty alternatives to import goods into the EU legally and be compliant with EU and local (the specific country's) legislation and thus in the above example have it legally be brought into Germany !

But never let someone convince you to destroy it !

Remember; cheep are there to be shaven...

And because one doesn't know the law, it doesn't mean there is a conspiacy going on or one meets with evil governmental forces, which are on a witch hunt !
They are all excellent intentions to avoid animals being killed for something stupid !

Let us as collectors not feed "das Gesundes Volksempfinden," / the "healthy feeling of the people" which is utterly subjective and ventilates feelings but does nor reflect the reality of the involved legislation...
and thus refrain from the blame game ! No disrespect to any forum members intended!☼

Tim Simmons · 3rd February 2024, 08:54 PM

Just don't be silly they are now worthless . Move them amongst yourselves where you can. Unless you are a vandal and must sell out of the circle. For what little is left. Sad but that is the case shut.

22nd January 2024, 02:15 PM	#1
corrado26 Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Black Forest, Germany Posts: 1,171	These laws, which completely miss the intended goal, are the result when incompetents without any necessary training call the shots in an institution like the EU Parliament

22nd January 2024, 03:36 PM	#3
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	I think there is a lot too much speculation as was to what hilts these blades had. Some were silver and ray skin over bamboo, others were silver and Niello. Personally, I feel the speculation, and where discussions are turning to, will cause far more bluster and fluff than any good to the forum. Nothing is going to change in this space, and just or unjust from a collectors point of view, or any speculation or discussion on the subject of what is not known for certain holds even less water within the current landscape. This is just sensationalism for sensationalism sake and a rehash of the subject that has been broached here numerous times. Live trade still happens. As recent as this week I have seen it on social media and other media. The issue is not going away. Agree or disagree, we are all entitled to opinions, for me. I see ongoing speculations or even instances of it being removed by governing bodies, that it will do the community here no good at all.

23rd January 2024, 05:19 AM	#4
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,044	Gav, I'm frankly surprised by your post. Yes, everyone is entitled to an opinion, and you have expressed disagreement with statements here condemning some aspects of the attempts to diminish the trade in elephant ivory and other prohibited species. It's not clear to me how such statements do a disservice to collectors. My concern is more with the opportunistic dealer who crudely removes a hilt to make a few dollars. Look at the second example shown below, where the crafted ferrule has been cut almost completely through with a pair of tin snips or similar tool, and then left hanging there. Crude and crass! Totally without a sense of the aesthetics of the piece and its craftsmanship. I agree that these things happen out of necessity in poorer nations where individuals are struggling to survive and antiques represent an opportunity to make a little money. That's more understandable. But this piece was offered at auction in Britain, a prosperous first world nation. The title of this forum is Ethnographic Weapons. To me, that means items crafted in a traditional manner from traditional materials by those from the original culture. Sometimes these may contain prohibited materials (such as ivory). In my view, such cultural artifacts created before, say, 1970 and containing prohibited materials should be permitted to remain intact and be traded. Those made after that time should not be traded. However, the rules are very different. Nevertheless, there are exceptions, and we, as collectors, should be able to avail ourselves of those exceptions without undue burden. That is not the case, and I think people have a right (and obligation) to vent frustration at that situation because cultural items are being damaged or destroyed as a result of undue bureaucracy. I don't think my views are harmful in any way to collectors here or as a whole. (Rant over)

23rd January 2024, 06:44 AM	#5
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	Ian, Indeed, vent your frustration at the global situation and the hypocrisy that abounds in that space. Where these are concerned specifically, it is all speculation within. You have ZERO idea about the who, what, how, and why these blades were presented to an auction without hilts that could be any manner of materials, the whole notion seem absurd without a crystal ball or a time machine with coordinates to get to when and where this happened.... Even the notion of tin snips, it is simply all speculation... surely the 3 question marks you used in the title, you must also have seen this as speculation which is only going to induce hype.. As for the diservices. Whilst not a direct POV to what I wrote, Lee knocked that nail on the head September last year in these pages, and it goes a LOT wider and deeper than that quick note. If you want to know what is actually happening and how, and it's impacts, feel free to write me privately, and factually. Gavin

3rd February 2024, 06:34 AM	#7
thomas hauschild Member Join Date: May 2017 Location: Germany Posts: 139	Yes a pitty.Newly in germany we have new laws about elephant ivory since a few month. Every trade ist strictly forbidden now. No matter if pieces are pre CITES or not. I have around 10 pieces from a collector. Just grips and matching scabbards from badik, rencong and kris. That collector emigrates back from switzerland ( outside EU) and he wanted to save the rest of his collection. Customs pushed him to destroy these blades cause they defined them as „push-daggers“, which are forbidden items in germany. A pitty

3rd February 2024, 08:54 PM	#9
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,742	Just don't be silly they are now worthless . Move them amongst yourselves where you can. Unless you are a vandal and must sell out of the circle. For what little is left. Sad but that is the case shut.