Proposed German Cultural Property Protection Law: likely problem for ethnographic arms and armor collectors

spiral · 28th July 2015, 11:28 PM

Often with such approaches in the EEC its Germany tomorrow... the rest of Europe next year...

Thanks for the heads up castellum aquilonis!

spiral

Rick · 28th July 2015, 11:48 PM

An outrage .
"Yes, as through this world I've wandered
I've seen lots of funny men
Some will rob you with a six-gun
And some with a fountain pen ."

Woody Guthrie

A. G. Maisey · 28th July 2015, 11:55 PM

If one sees a steamroller coming down the street, one does not stand in front of it, but finds a way around it.

spiral · 29th July 2015, 12:13 AM

A fellow kukri collector currently has legal trouble in Europe for importing a few kukris from Australia, including a very old ivory handled kukri,{amogst others.} without the correct cities paperwork...

He bought it assuming it was a bone hilt,.....From bad photos...

The prosecutor's have found a photo over 15 years old & 3 owners apart {All members of this forum...} which described it as ivory on an American forum.

There using that old post as evidence against him...

spiral

Ian · 29th July 2015, 02:00 AM

Fortunately, there are scientific tests that can distinguish bone from ivory, so if it is bone he should have no problem. If it is ivory, can he reasonably be held accountable for an opinion expressed in a remote source that he failed to detect? It would seem that the burden of proof in Europe is that one has to take into account every conceivable source of information, otherwise you are liable.

For this reason I am very reluctant to sell items to folks living in EU.

Ian.

Quote:

Originally Posted by spiral

A fellow kukri collector currently has legal trouble in Europe for importing a few kukris from Australia, including a very old ivory handled kukri,{amogst others.} without the correct cities paperwork...

He bought it assuming it was a bone hilt,.....From bad photos...

The prosecutor's have found a photo over 15 years old & 3 owners apart {All members of this forum...} which described it as ivory on an American forum.

There using that old post as evidence against him...

spiral

A. G. Maisey · 29th July 2015, 02:09 AM

Yes Ian, Europe can be very difficult in more ways than, when it comes to sale into Europe of edged weapons.

Rick · 29th July 2015, 02:31 AM

Items of ivory have disappeared from our local auction house's Japanese, Asian and other auctions .
Before this Spring such items were always listed with the notation that they could not be shipped to California .

spiral · 29th July 2015, 07:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ian

Fortunately, there are scientific tests that can distinguish bone from ivory, so if it is bone he should have no problem. If it is ivory, can he reasonably be held accountable for an opinion expressed in a remote source that he failed to detect? It would seem that the burden of proof in Europe is that one has to take into account every conceivable source of information, otherwise you are liable.

For this reason I am very reluctant to sell items to folks living in EU.

Ian.

Sadly in this case it is ivory. There are testing a horn handled piece to determine its species though.

After all with Cites the law is broken even it is due to ignorance of the law .{No legal paperwork}

I suspect the kukris, {They seized all 4 of them as in the same parcel.} will not be returned.

There all {IMHO} early 20th century. One has a 22ct. gold scabbard fittings. 2 are silver fittings.

spiral

drac2k · 29th July 2015, 04:59 PM

Unfortunately these items will probably be incinerated with other cultural treasures.The Taliban and Isis destroy historical artifacts as do our "Western," governments;what is the difference in these cases ?
To our German friends, if you are told by a government official that "to know what is in the law, you have to pass it first," duck and Run !!!!

trenchwarfare · 29th July 2015, 01:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

If one sees a steamroller coming down the street, one does not stand in front of it, but finds a way around it.

Unfortunately, the average citizen (of any country) is like a cartoon character, and will run in front of it, till he trips and falls. Or just lay down, and accept the inevitable.

castellum aquilonis · 29th July 2015, 12:11 AM

I assume that this is about the total control of personal property, and a few people who had the feeling not having enough attention in their area of politics wanted to get more attention.
Very interesting article above.
I hope they will change or totally drop this insane law.

We have all the laws we need or do not need already.

Most collectors treat their items much better as any museum could do, we also have to remember that.

29th July 2015, 02:31 AM	#7
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,268	The Shotgun Approach Items of ivory have disappeared from our local auction house's Japanese, Asian and other auctions . Before this Spring such items were always listed with the notation that they could not be shipped to California .

29th July 2015, 12:11 AM	#11
castellum aquilonis Member Join Date: Aug 2013 Posts: 47	Germany I assume that this is about the total control of personal property, and a few people who had the feeling not having enough attention in their area of politics wanted to get more attention. Very interesting article above. I hope they will change or totally drop this insane law. We have all the laws we need or do not need already. Most collectors treat their items much better as any museum could do, we also have to remember that.

28th July 2015, 11:28 PM	#1
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	Often with such approaches in the EEC its Germany tomorrow... the rest of Europe next year... Thanks for the heads up castellum aquilonis! spiral

28th July 2015, 11:48 PM	#2
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,268	An outrage . "Yes, as through this world I've wandered I've seen lots of funny men Some will rob you with a six-gun And some with a fountain pen ." Woody Guthrie

28th July 2015, 11:55 PM	#3
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,738	If one sees a steamroller coming down the street, one does not stand in front of it, but finds a way around it.

29th July 2015, 12:13 AM	#4
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	A fellow kukri collector currently has legal trouble in Europe for importing a few kukris from Australia, including a very old ivory handled kukri,{amogst others.} without the correct cities paperwork... He bought it assuming it was a bone hilt,.....From bad photos... The prosecutor's have found a photo over 15 years old & 3 owners apart {All members of this forum...} which described it as ivory on an American forum. There using that old post as evidence against him... spiral

29th July 2015, 02:09 AM	#6
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,738	Yes Ian, Europe can be very difficult in more ways than, when it comes to sale into Europe of edged weapons.

29th July 2015, 04:59 PM	#9
drac2k Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 1,187	Unfortunately these items will probably be incinerated with other cultural treasures.The Taliban and Isis destroy historical artifacts as do our "Western," governments;what is the difference in these cases ? To our German friends, if you are told by a government official that "to know what is in the law, you have to pass it first," duck and Run !!!!