1780 heavy Cavalry Officer Sword

[Bryce]

G'day Jim,

Yes the scrolling bars are basically the same shape and may derive from honeysuckle as well or perhaps both represent something unrelated to honeysuckle? I am not sure who came up with the first honeysuckle label?

The scarf welds appear to be quite common and I imagine it has something to do with an iron tang being less likely to break? Personally I have always thought that the ricasso is a bad place to place a weld and the smith would have to make damn sure that it is a very good weld.
Cheers,

Bryce

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Bryce

G'day Jim,

Yes the scrolling bars are basically the same shape and may derive from honeysuckle as well or perhaps both represent something unrelated to honeysuckle? I am not sure who came up with the first honeysuckle label?

The scarf welds appear to be quite common and I imagine it has something to do with an iron tang being less likely to break? Personally I have always thought that the ricasso is a bad place to place a weld and the smith would have to make damn sure that it is a very good weld.
Cheers,

Bryce

It is hard to know exactly when this term came into descriptive use toward the hilts of these British swords, and as always Victorian descriptions in observations often brought in colorful romanticized terms. Honeysuckle apparently gained popular attention in those times pertaining to some superstitious beliefs, but the designs using the scrolled designs were already well in use in the second half 18th c. with late baroque styling.

The first use of the term I know of personally was toward the hilt of the M1796 British heavy cavalry officers sword (undress) which also had the pierced 'ladder' design in the upper part of the pierced bowl. The term also referred to the similar hilt design of the heavy cavalry M1821/29 pattern.

It is interesting that the heavy cavalry term was not known or used in the time of these dragoon officers swords we are discussing (1750s-80s) and in 1756 units of 'light' dragoons were created. In 1788, reorganizing of cavalry units was completed and the units of light dragoons (becoming light cavalry and hussars later) and the other units were termed 'dragoon guards' later heavy cavalry.

What I had not realized is that there were no 'heavy cavalry' units in this period 1750-80 as such, so dragoon officers seem to have had pretty much 'carte blanche' in their selection of personal swords, as seen by the examples shown in our discussion.
That is perhaps why the designation of '1788 heavy cavalry officers sword' is such an apocryphal designation.

The lionhead example I posted has similar example in design shown in Southwick (a silver hilt) and noted Dru Drury as cutler.....while mine appears marketed by John Read, a Dublin outfitter, so it seems the designs were not limited to one cutler.

In measuring the blade, it is 38" so in line with the very long blades of 'heavy dragoons' popular in 1760s-70s.
On the blade, there are distinct marking upper part of blade near forte, an F and near it, what remains of a '3'.
Hoping I can find what these might mean.

The scarf welds you noticed are also a distinct curiosity, and I am with you, why would this be done at the join with the tang? There are certain swords in Oman which had longer tangs welded on because they were fitted with longer cylindrical hilts, but that does not seem the issue here. Also, these are remarkably long blades, so clearly not cut down.

Pics are the M1796 heavy cavalry officers sword, and the M1829 heavy cavalry officers sword; both with termed 'honeysuckle hilts'.

[Bryce]

G'day Jim,
I wonder if hilts like mine may have helped inspire whoever came up with the 1796 ladder hilt design?
Cheers,
Bryce

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Bryce,
It sure seems plausible in some degree, and hilt designs in certain categories might be similar structurally, but simple embellishments added or changed.
In that period of the 18th century, it does seem the officers were extremely focused on fashion, and followed the styling found with the gentleman's small sword hilts , with many parallels in the forms. I think the silver hilts as shown in Southwick as a key reference illustrates well these design orientations.

I think the more pragmatic designs in the troopers sabers on 1796 with simple strirrup hilt became embellished with simple added guard bars which became the M1821/1829 (production stalled c. 1825 with issues in both light and heavy troopers (bowl guard) versions). The officers sabers however remained as the M1822, also with three bar design. These added bars also formed the basis for the infantry officers saber hilt, which became later known as the 'gothic' hilt in the arms writer jargon in the same manner as 'honeysuckle' hilt probably in the same manner in the Victorian era.

For me the hilt design motivations were always intriguing, and I recall the mysterious 'five ball hilt' of the infantry officer 'spadroons' of c. 1780 and the 'five ball hilt'. I got the notion that there might be a Masonic connection with the number five that might be subtly represented ( Freemasonry was pretty well established with officers and gentry of the period). When I discussed the idea with Robson, he politely suggested the idea as a bit 'fanciful' and that the design was simply 'aesthetic'. It seems that Blair and May approached these hilts in a article in JAAS (cant recall issue offhand) but could not describe a reliable source for the design.

In further support of my 'Masonic' idea, there was a strong solidarity in Freemasonry between the British and French lodges which surmounted national or political disparities. In what appears a singular instance of the French adopting a design 'from' the British, they had hilts of this design which they termed l'Anglaise.

My apologies for the tirade on hilt designs, just expounding a bit on some of my obsessions over the years

[Bryce]

G'day Jim,
I have also wondered about Masonic connections with some sword decoration from the period.

The 1796 ladder hilt in the comparison photo I posted above was sold in a Wallis and Wallis sale in 1972. It is described thus "pierced honeysuckle guard", so the term was in use at least as far back as that.
Cheers,
Bryce

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Bryce

G'day Jim,
I have also wondered about Masonic connections with some sword decoration from the period.

The 1796 ladder hilt in the comparison photo I posted above was sold in a Wallis and Wallis sale in 1972. It is described thus "pierced honeysuckle guard", so the term was in use at least as far back as that.
Cheers,
Bryce

Hi Bryce,
Pretty sure John Wilkinson-Latham used the term in 1967 in his book, and if I recall he was profoundly influenced by Charles Ffoulkes who wrote in 1938, so hard to say just when the term entered the British arms lexicon.
Again, I had one of those ladder hilts years back, should never have let it go!

With the number five, it was both a sacred and mystical number well known in Freemasonry, and followed by the numbers 3 and 7. In the French versions of the beaded hilt some had seven beads.
As mentioned, and piquing my curiosity is the number 3 and the latter F seemingly randomly placed on the blade of my lionhead dragoon officers sword.
With the seal or star of Solomon on Wilkinson swords, I was assured by Mr.Wilkinson-Latham it had nothing to do with Masonry, but the ancient symbol of interlocking triangles. This use of ancient symbolism was of course inherent in Masonic doctrines.

Best,
Jim

[Jim McDougall]

Going through old files, I found this from nearly 30 years ago. It was listed as a dragoon officers sword when acquired in late 70s (1770-80).
Neumann (277.S) called it an English horseman sword 1780-95 with an identical hilt structure but with faceted pommel.
Robson, (1975) showed a similar hilt suggesting this was the M1788 'heavy' cavalry hilt if i recall.

As earlier noted, British cavalry were termed dragoons, with only the 'light dragoons' beginning after 1759, the heavier troops termed dragoon guards if I understand correctly. The terms light and heavy cavalry came into use with the 1796 regulations.

Obviously the spherical pommel is incorrect, and I never could figure where it might have come from.

[Hotspur]

Originally Posted by Bryce

G'day Jim,

Yes the scrolling bars are basically the same shape and may derive from honeysuckle as well or perhaps both represent something unrelated to honeysuckle? I am not sure who came up with the first honeysuckle label?

The scarf welds appear to be quite common and I imagine it has something to do with an iron tang being less likely to break? Personally I have always thought that the ricasso is a bad place to place a weld and the smith would have to make damn sure that it is a very good weld.
Cheers,

Bryce

From Robert Wilkinson-Latham, British makers were doing soft welded tangs well into the 19th century, with patent hilts an iimmediate change of thoughts.

There was a fellow in the U.S. named Pettibone and he submitted a patent re welding soft tangs to his cast steel billet blades. Everything is videos these days and I think Matt Easton's might be worth it but there are articles and discussion. Some claim the ricasso counter polish is to get close to the hilt. My opinion is that is, that obvious, a case of polishing out the welds.

That's a great sword there Bryce!

Cheers
GC