New Rock Crystal Pesh-kabz

[mariusgmioc]

My crystal hilted...

[vilhelmsson]

TVV, Thank you for the images! The bare hilt on page 265 is interesting and bears a close resemblance to a hilt in the Victoria & Albert Museum: http://collections.vam.ac.uk/item/O450640/dagger-hilt/.

While acknowledging Ariel's comments regarding a potential Al-Sabah agency dilemma, the very similar hilt in the VAM was acquired at some point between 1829 and 1867, and dated to the early 19th century. Likewise, The Met crystal dagger was acquired at sometime prior to 1927, and they date it to the 18th or 19th century.

According to my brief internet research, the first Belgian exports of pressed glass to India commenced in 1839 by Val Saint Lambert (https://www.academia.edu/37691529/Be...e_19th_Century). The author discusses other pressed glass products, including lamp covers, exported from Europe to India, but does not specifically mention glass hilts. And Elgood's comment re glass hilts coming from Belgium relies on a citation that lamps in certain Indian temples were imported from Europe. An even briefer search for 19th century Val Saint Lambert glass hilts does not turn up anything useful. But I'm not sure that any of this is dispositive of anything with regards to the hilt of my dagger or the hilts in VAM, The Met, or Al-Sabah.

I took a half-hearted swipe at the hilt with a piece of a quartz and it only left a superficial scratch that rubbed off at the touch of my thumb--unlike the permanent gouge the quartz put in the drinking glass at my desk. When I get the chance, I need to take it to a jeweler to test the conductivity.

Most daggers with one piece rock hilts are not suitable for combat use as the joint between the hilt and the blade cannot withstand strong shocks, and the hilts themselves are prone to cracking. They became popular around 1900 when daggers gained more of a decorative/status role.

In regards to the above analysis concluding that rock hilts did not become popular until around 1900, I would question this. Hadn't daggers served a largely decorative/status and ceremonial roll at, in particular, northern courts since at least the early 17th century, for example, the Jahangir dagger in Elgood's Rajput Arms & Armour? How much more robust are jade or walrus ivory hilted daggers than a crystal-hilted dagger, with or without a tang? And crystal was quite the fashion in Mughal courts. There is at least one rock crystal hilt in a museum, the VAM example, that can be highly likely dated to at least as early as the mid-19th century. And that particular shape is somewhat common as seen in Jens's dagger above and in The Met example, which suggests that crystal (rock- or glass) was a popular hilt material well prior to 1900.

For me, the attraction of Indian arms is not in their raw marshal utility, but in their beauty. But if marshal utility is your thing, the nicks in the blade of my pesh kabz indicate that a child likely fought some imaginary battles with this dagger!

Just looking at the pics, I am not sure whether wootz on the smaller one is modern. Wootz patterns varied enormously and while a classy Kara-taban is highly likely to be old and Persian, the indistinct and undistinguished ones could have been made any time and anywhere.

Regarding the above comment, acknowledged regarding a lesser wootz pattern potentially being of any age, but in this case the wootz pattern on the smaller blade is irrelevant. The steel itself is, without doubt, a very modern stainless steel alloy.

Mahratt, Thank you for the photo. That must be pre-Oct 2015?

Jens, Both of those daggers are beautiful. Your hilt looks like a nice lattice of SiO2, but do you know or have an opinion on whether it's quartz or glass?

[mariusgmioc]

Originally Posted by vilhelmsson

In regards to the above analysis concluding that rock hilts did not become popular until around 1900, I would question this. Hadn't daggers served a largely decorative/status and ceremonial roll at, in particular, northern courts since at least the early 17th century, for example, the Jahangir dagger in Elgood's Rajput Arms & Armour? How much more robust are jade or walrus ivory hilted daggers than a crystal-hilted dagger, with or without a tang? And crystal was quite the fashion in Mughal courts. There is at least one rock crystal hilt in a museum, the VAM example, that can be highly likely dated to at least as early as the mid-19th century. And that particular shape is somewhat common as seen in Jens's dagger above and in The Met example, which suggests that crystal (rock- or glass) was a popular hilt material well prior to 1900.

Right... single-pieced rock hilts existed well before 1900 but from around 1900 they became much, much more prevalent... in other words, they became popular. And this is most likely because they became fashionable collector's items for the European... well, mostly English market.
So yes, you may find a crystal/rock-hilted dagger from the early 19th century here and there... but their vast majority are from around 1900 and later.

Originally Posted by vilhelmsson

But if marshal utility is your thing, the nicks in the blade of my pesh kabz indicate that a child likely fought some imaginary battles with this dagger!

Precisely!
A child could have made the nicks in the blade...
... but more likely it was rust.
The edge is the thinnest part of the blade and when it rusts, it can go all the way through. So where on a flat surface of the blade rust would leave a pit, on the edge would leave a nick.
The nicks, may also come from real combat use as the blade may have formerly been mounted in a more combat-ready hilt. However, this is highly unlikely because these daggers were used for stabbing not for slashing and the most likely damage may have been a broken or bent tip, not a damaged edge. Even when piercing chainmail, the edge may become more blunt but not nicked.

Originally Posted by vilhelmsson

Regarding the above comment, acknowledged regarding a lesser wootz pattern potentially being of any age, but in this case the wootz pattern on the smaller blade is irrelevant. The steel itself is, without doubt, a very modern stainless steel alloy.

Modern, maybe, but definitely not stainless steel! Most likely modern wootz, as wootz is produced these days as well. Some comes closer to the antique, some not, but all the rest is there.

and lastly...

Originally Posted by vilhelmsson

When I get the chance, I need to take it to a jeweler to test the conductivity.

Better yet... you buy from Amazon a gem tester for 15 Euro more or less and test it yourself. Quartz is more conductive than glass, pretty much like Amethist or Citrine.
Quartz scratches quartz, like diamond scratches diamond.

[Jens Nordlunde]

Vilhelmsson, yes the hilt has been tested and it is quarts.
One thing is to buy such a testing thing yourself, but try to visit someone dealing in gem stones and ask him/her. I did and we had a long discussion, from which I learned a lot - which I had not done had I tested it myself.

Elgood does not mention lamp shades or anythink else, only glass hilts, and yes, quarts hilts were used before the 19th century.
No one would have believed these weapons would have been good for battle, most surely not the user - but at court they looked fine:-).

[vilhelmsson]

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Vilhelmsson, yes the hilt has been tested and it is quarts.
One thing is to buy such a testing thing yourself, but try to visit someone dealing in gem stones and ask him/her. I did and we had a long discussion, from which I learned a lot - which I had not done had I tested it myself.

Jens, this reminds me of a Kurt Vonnegut quote I heard on the radio the other day:

"[When Vonnegut tells his wife he's going out to buy an envelope] Oh, she says, well, you're not a poor man. You know, why don't you go online and buy a hundred envelopes and put them in the closet? And so I pretend not to hear her. And go out to get an envelope because I'm going to have a hell of a good time in the process of buying one envelope. I meet a lot of people. And, see some great looking babes. And a fire engine goes by. And I give them the thumbs up. And, and ask a woman what kind of dog that is. And, and I don't know. The moral of the story is, is we're here on Earth to fart around. And, of course, the computers will do us out of that. And, what the computer people don't realize, or they don't care, is we're dancing animals. You know, we love to move around. And, we're not supposed to dance at all anymore."

[Jens Nordlunde]

Ariel,
Yes I know, the weapons are mixed on both sides of the 'border'. Besides from this, imagine how many swords and dagger changed hilts during their 'life' - and often more than once.


Vilhelmsson,
It was interesting talking to the gemmologist, and he checked the hilt for free, as he usually dealt with single stones or with jewellery, so this was new to him.

[mahratt]

Originally Posted by vilhelmsson

Mahratt, Thank you for the photo. That must be pre-Oct 2015?

2012