Ethnographic Arms & Armour
 

Go Back   Ethnographic Arms & Armour > Discussion Forums > European Armoury
User Name
Password
FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 13th October 2019, 03:33 AM   #1
Hotspur
Member
 
Hotspur's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Nipmuc USA
Posts: 386
Default Transitional, Victorian, Other?

Curiosity got the better of me with this one. I can't quite make out some facets of how this hilt was put together but I am somehow thinking it is of around 1700, or perhaps a little earlier. Then again, I may be way, way off. Either I did well, or paid a premium for a modernistic take on this form. A military smallsword, or ?????

Cheers
GC
Attached Images
         
Hotspur is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13th October 2019, 09:17 AM   #2
corrado26
Member
 
corrado26's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Black Forest, Germany
Posts: 745
Default

I am not sure but at least one mark is very similar to marks used by Spanish sword cuttlers of Toledo.
Attached Images
 
corrado26 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13th October 2019, 02:38 PM   #3
Hotspur
Member
 
Hotspur's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Nipmuc USA
Posts: 386
Default

Thank you. I am pretty sure the other mark references the Kingdom of Castile. I am having a hard time putting the hilt in the 16th century though. The acute point to the blade makes for it being a serious item, vs a decorator.

Cheers
GC
Hotspur is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14th October 2019, 02:30 AM   #4
MitsuWa.
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 13
Default

Your hilt, handle, pommel and guard appear to be a casting rather than individual components from what I can see in the photos. What construction detail were you trying to figure out?
MitsuWa. is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14th October 2019, 05:19 AM   #5
Hotspur
Member
 
Hotspur's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Nipmuc USA
Posts: 386
Default

I don't believe the ferrules are cast to the grip, nor the plates and annelets part of the grip casting, with the pommel and peen blocks separate as well.

At any rate, such castings coming in by the mid 17th century.

I don't have a "twin" to compare it to, hence my being unconvinced of just about anything right now. Once in hand, I can be more sure of how many pieces comprise the hilt.

Cheers
GC

Last edited by Hotspur : 14th October 2019 at 05:40 AM.
Hotspur is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14th October 2019, 01:37 PM   #6
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury
 
fernando's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 7,686
Default

Glen, you know i am not a connoisseur at all but, i dare say that, the emblem for Castile in its single form dates far back in time, later replaced by the 'composite' Leon y Castela coat of arms, more consonant in period with what should appear in this sword. Also i doubt that the Toledo smith mark suggested by Udo is the one in your blade.
So, without questioning the authenticity of your sword, i seem to question the originality of its marks ... unless they were a personalized feature.
But then again, don't pay much notice to my mumbo jumbo.
fernando is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th October 2019, 03:27 PM   #7
Ed
Member
 
Ed's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 175
Default

Sent some pictures off to a dealer pal of mine.

Looks like a decorator to me. Blade and application of the markings seem odd.
Ed is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th October 2019, 03:55 PM   #8
Hotspur
Member
 
Hotspur's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Nipmuc USA
Posts: 386
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed
Sent some pictures off to a dealer pal of mine.

Looks like a decorator to me. Blade and application of the markings seem odd.



Respectfully who is the dealer?

Cheers
GC
Hotspur is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th October 2019, 05:14 PM   #9
Jim McDougall
Research Consultant
 
Jim McDougall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66
Posts: 7,693
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hotspur
Respectfully who is the dealer?

Cheers
GC


Again, really hard to tell with pics, and this seems a fully serviceable sword by the physical description. Best discuss the second hand opinion of the dealer privately as far as his identity, but explanation of his analysis reasons would be interesting for those of us discussing this weapon.
Jim McDougall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th October 2019, 05:55 PM   #10
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury
 
fernando's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 7,686
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim McDougall
Best discuss the second hand opinion of the dealer privately as far as his identity, but explanation of his analysis reasons would be interesting for those of us discussing this weapon.

Yes ... absolutely.
fernando is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th October 2019, 06:52 PM   #11
Hotspur
Member
 
Hotspur's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Nipmuc USA
Posts: 386
Default

Point taken guys but Ed's comment could have been conveyed privately as well. I was simply curious as to whom he refers. It is a pretty small world. I'm not here for the politics.

That opinion aside, here are some resized images. All fittings are ferrous and imo, steel or iron. The plates do appear cast but I believe I may have mentioned cast steel was coming into vogue by the mid 17th century. I do not think the plates were cast together with the body of the roped guard but joined hot. I have done my best to show sections that were assembled. I have scrubbed a section of the blade and will be taking off the grunge/varnish, whatever that top coat is. You can somewhat see it had been sharp and then somewhat bated at some point. If I return with after photos, that will reinforce my take on a shortened or re-purposed blade. I could guess it might have been from an older broken estoc or rapier but that is just speculation.

As this venue is not an exclusive inquiry and presentation of this piece, I can hope that if I happen to cross post a name or few that some can understand it is, collectively, a pretty small world and we all should be able to discuss a given object. I'm done for now.

Cheers
GC

Three more in the next post
Attached Images
            
Hotspur is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump



All times are GMT. The time now is 08:45 PM.


Powered by: vBulletin Version 3.0.3
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Posts are regarded as being copyrighted by their authors and the act of posting material is deemed to be a granting of an irrevocable nonexclusive license for display here.