Hunting sword - Hirschfanger for comments

Interested Party · 24th December 2023, 02:01 PM

Akanthus thank you for this description. It was helpful for understanding of what I am seeing. I live in an area where many people still rely on meat obtained from hunting (it is a common vacation or rather "staycation" for many people in the fall) or meat from their own cattle. It is interesting to see how the sport of hunting changes through the years and how it relates to class. In western society I wonder if now the elite gentry doesn't hunt as much, and the "sport" of the hunt is the province of the middle class and people who live in rural areas. Though I still have a few friends who make a living as hunting guides.

A botched shot or trying to hunt using the old methods are rarely pretty. The shape of the original blade grind and the angle that a blade is sharped at effect this process to an amazing degree. All razor edges are not created equally. A flat grind or a very gradual I call it Japanese style of edge (a very gentle channel grind) make things progress much more smoothly. Such practices as described in earlier posts also help us understand human interaction of the period as well, I believe. I have to wonder if such rituals didn't help harden the participants up to enable them to do what they must to keep their wealth and privilege through borderline sociopathic tendencies. As well as some echo to blood sacrifice rites that are not as remote as we would like to think. Dark thought I know, but what it takes to keep meat on the table is puzzling and removed in industrialized societies. Not to mention that many readers are beginning the celebration of what was supposed to be the last blood sacrifice. Anyway, I digress. That is a beautiful blade. The descendants of that stag motif lived into the late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries if my memory serves me. Maybe even into the present with some elite manufacturers of firearms. I possibly had some relevant pictures if I can find them. The angle of the stag's neck fascinates me. At once it seems to show fleet movement and resemble the angle of repose of a fresh kill while it still in the flaccid, almost gelatine state just after circulation fails. Is the handle of this hanger porcelain? I had thought tortoise shell at a glance.

I apologize for any discomfort given. Sometimes I have trouble not viewing the world and our subject matter wholistically. I wish everyone a happy Holliday season.

-IP

fernando · 25th December 2023, 10:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Interested Party

Is the handle of this hanger porcelain? I had thought tortoise shell at a glance....

My friend thinks it has to do with some horn material; maybe deer antler !

Jim McDougall · 25th December 2023, 04:34 PM

From Bruno Thomas & Ortwin Gamber, "Jahrbuch des Kunsthitorischen Museums in Wien 1937 to 1955". as cited in
"imperial Austria: Treasures of Art, Arms and Armor from the State of Styria"
Musueum of Fine Arts, Houston, 1992:

"...they convincingly explained that rather than being mere accessories, weapons are themselves artistic creations that reflect larger stylistic tendancies of a period".

The nobility and gentry of Europe, much as characteristic of most civilized societies, were well aware of fashion, style and curiosities, and the 'hunt' was more of a 'field exercise' of court assembly and event.

There was of course notable competition among these figures who eagerly sought to impress others and themselves with unique, sometimes dramatic, elements reflecting these, of course on their weapons.

Blackmore (op. cit. 1971, p.36-38) notes, '...towards the end of the 17th c. TORTOISE SHELL obtained from the hawkesbill turtle native to Asian tropical waters began to be imported into Europe. The chief advantage of this malleable material was the ease with which it could be shaped, molded, impressed or inlaid with decoration".

However it goes on to describe just how rarely this material was used on weapons, but usually more common on accessories such as snuff boxes and sundry items. .......BUT, there were a few weapons in which it was used.

Porcelain seems to have produced primarily in the Chantilly and St. Cloud factories in France.

The influences of the Orient were as noted, gaining popularity in Europe with the Dutch East India Co. being a primary source. The gold and silver alloy called 'shakudo' while being a Japanese product was originally thought to be associated with the style termed 'Tonquinese' . Tonquin , Annam was a province in now Viet Nam under Chinese control and later French colonial.
The shakudo was apparently produced for the VOC at their factory in Deshima Japan, an island off the mainland.

European hilt makers seem to have actually brought in Chinese artisans for produce hilts and mounts for many of the eagerly desired 'exotic' weapons in the 18th c.

While obviously a Chinese Qing era saber, this example of much earlier blade remounted, probably diplomatically or presentation oriented, using tortoise shell material, probably first half 19th c.

kai · 26th December 2023, 07:40 PM

Quote:

My friend thinks it has to do with some horn material; maybe deer antler !

Well, antler is bone - not any horn material...

This criss-cross pattern is not tortoise shell IMHO. To me, this looks like a paint job (there was a special technique being utilized - its name eludes me right now): The fading of the dark pattern along the facet ridges is the major hint (worn through).

Close-ups (in focus) would be good!

Regards,
Kai

fernando · 27th December 2023, 10:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kai

... Well, antler is bone - not any horn material...

So sorry for the idiomatic expression ?

" Antler = each of the branched 'horns' on the head of an adult deer (typically a male one), which are made of bone and are grown and cast annually "

Quote:

Originally Posted by kai

... The criss-cross pattern is not tortoise shell IMHO...

Visibly not !

Quote:

Originally Posted by kai

... To me, this looks like a paint job (there was a special technique being utilized - its name eludes me right now): The fading of the dark pattern along the facet ridges is the major hint (worn through)...

Maybe done with some kind of acid (?) that keeps it resitant to wearing for a long period ...

Quote:

Originally Posted by kai

Close-ups (in focus) would be good!..

I will ask for those; but this person only depends on his cell phone camera !

fernando · 29th December 2023, 03:34 PM

The best possible ...

-

Interested Party · 30th December 2023, 01:17 PM

I can see it being a stag handle with these pictures. The shell guard of horsemen and dogs is an interesting and appropriate motif. This guard was cast? A knotwork of protection spells engraved on the blade. Thank you for the pictures.

Jim McDougall · 30th December 2023, 04:56 PM

The reason I added the image of the tortoise shell material of a Chinese sword in the unnoticed post I placed previously was to illustrate the effect of yellow color highlighted with brown patches. Somehow it just seemed in line with the yellowish toned material here which is staghorn or buckhorn most likely (not sure of the proper zoological term) which has indeed been painted or highlighted ...
.......
Could it be that the idea was to imitate the tortoise shell effect seen on some Chinese arms?

The elements of rococo decoration in the 18th century often included those of 'chinoiserie' (in the Chinese manner) and it seems faux material decoration was popular through the 18th c. While usually applied to steel or iron, the browning or russeting seems at hand in this example.

In Europe, 'orientalism' was in the height of fashion and popularity, and the curious talismanic charms and mysticism became well represented in the intaglios of themes on blades. The trellis type cross hatching and entwined vegetal decoration IMO has to do with that of talismanic devices and sigils with origins in Eastern Europe which came into France and Germany.

While it would seem strange that protective amulets etc. would be needed in the hunt, there was a good deal of danger from wounded and enraged animals as well as many other potential accidents. The invoking for success in the hunt was also a factor.

I agree this is likely from German states in mid 18th c.

The reason that court and hunting swords are so inherently difficult to identify and classify in these periods is that they were typically commissioned by individuals to cutlers who were jewelers and precious metals artisans. Thus more often than not they were essentially 'one off', though following popular themes and decorative devices.

25th December 2023, 04:34 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,785	From Bruno Thomas & Ortwin Gamber, "Jahrbuch des Kunsthitorischen Museums in Wien 1937 to 1955". as cited in "imperial Austria: Treasures of Art, Arms and Armor from the State of Styria" Musueum of Fine Arts, Houston, 1992: "...they convincingly explained that rather than being mere accessories, weapons are themselves artistic creations that reflect larger stylistic tendancies of a period". The nobility and gentry of Europe, much as characteristic of most civilized societies, were well aware of fashion, style and curiosities, and the 'hunt' was more of a 'field exercise' of court assembly and event. There was of course notable competition among these figures who eagerly sought to impress others and themselves with unique, sometimes dramatic, elements reflecting these, of course on their weapons. Blackmore (op. cit. 1971, p.36-38) notes, '...towards the end of the 17th c. TORTOISE SHELL obtained from the hawkesbill turtle native to Asian tropical waters began to be imported into Europe. The chief advantage of this malleable material was the ease with which it could be shaped, molded, impressed or inlaid with decoration". However it goes on to describe just how rarely this material was used on weapons, but usually more common on accessories such as snuff boxes and sundry items. .......BUT, there were a few weapons in which it was used. Porcelain seems to have produced primarily in the Chantilly and St. Cloud factories in France. The influences of the Orient were as noted, gaining popularity in Europe with the Dutch East India Co. being a primary source. The gold and silver alloy called 'shakudo' while being a Japanese product was originally thought to be associated with the style termed 'Tonquinese' . Tonquin , Annam was a province in now Viet Nam under Chinese control and later French colonial. The shakudo was apparently produced for the VOC at their factory in Deshima Japan, an island off the mainland. European hilt makers seem to have actually brought in Chinese artisans for produce hilts and mounts for many of the eagerly desired 'exotic' weapons in the 18th c. While obviously a Chinese Qing era saber, this example of much earlier blade remounted, probably diplomatically or presentation oriented, using tortoise shell material, probably first half 19th c. Attached Images Last edited by Jim McDougall; 26th December 2023 at 05:09 AM.

29th December 2023, 03:34 PM	#6
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,647	The best possible ... - Attached Images

30th December 2023, 04:56 PM	#8
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,785	The reason I added the image of the tortoise shell material of a Chinese sword in the unnoticed post I placed previously was to illustrate the effect of yellow color highlighted with brown patches. Somehow it just seemed in line with the yellowish toned material here which is staghorn or buckhorn most likely (not sure of the proper zoological term) which has indeed been painted or highlighted ... ....... Could it be that the idea was to imitate the tortoise shell effect seen on some Chinese arms? The elements of rococo decoration in the 18th century often included those of 'chinoiserie' (in the Chinese manner) and it seems faux material decoration was popular through the 18th c. While usually applied to steel or iron, the browning or russeting seems at hand in this example. In Europe, 'orientalism' was in the height of fashion and popularity, and the curious talismanic charms and mysticism became well represented in the intaglios of themes on blades. The trellis type cross hatching and entwined vegetal decoration IMO has to do with that of talismanic devices and sigils with origins in Eastern Europe which came into France and Germany. While it would seem strange that protective amulets etc. would be needed in the hunt, there was a good deal of danger from wounded and enraged animals as well as many other potential accidents. The invoking for success in the hunt was also a factor. I agree this is likely from German states in mid 18th c. The reason that court and hunting swords are so inherently difficult to identify and classify in these periods is that they were typically commissioned by individuals to cutlers who were jewelers and precious metals artisans. Thus more often than not they were essentially 'one off', though following popular themes and decorative devices. Last edited by Jim McDougall; 30th December 2023 at 05:07 PM.

24th December 2023, 02:01 PM	#1
Interested Party Member Join Date: Dec 2019 Location: Eastern Sierra Posts: 392	Akanthus thank you for this description. It was helpful for understanding of what I am seeing. I live in an area where many people still rely on meat obtained from hunting (it is a common vacation or rather "staycation" for many people in the fall) or meat from their own cattle. It is interesting to see how the sport of hunting changes through the years and how it relates to class. In western society I wonder if now the elite gentry doesn't hunt as much, and the "sport" of the hunt is the province of the middle class and people who live in rural areas. Though I still have a few friends who make a living as hunting guides. A botched shot or trying to hunt using the old methods are rarely pretty. The shape of the original blade grind and the angle that a blade is sharped at effect this process to an amazing degree. All razor edges are not created equally. A flat grind or a very gradual I call it Japanese style of edge (a very gentle channel grind) make things progress much more smoothly. Such practices as described in earlier posts also help us understand human interaction of the period as well, I believe. I have to wonder if such rituals didn't help harden the participants up to enable them to do what they must to keep their wealth and privilege through borderline sociopathic tendencies. As well as some echo to blood sacrifice rites that are not as remote as we would like to think. Dark thought I know, but what it takes to keep meat on the table is puzzling and removed in industrialized societies. Not to mention that many readers are beginning the celebration of what was supposed to be the last blood sacrifice. Anyway, I digress. That is a beautiful blade. The descendants of that stag motif lived into the late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries if my memory serves me. Maybe even into the present with some elite manufacturers of firearms. I possibly had some relevant pictures if I can find them. The angle of the stag's neck fascinates me. At once it seems to show fleet movement and resemble the angle of repose of a fresh kill while it still in the flaccid, almost gelatine state just after circulation fails. Is the handle of this hanger porcelain? I had thought tortoise shell at a glance. I apologize for any discomfort given. Sometimes I have trouble not viewing the world and our subject matter wholistically. I wish everyone a happy Holliday season. -IP

30th December 2023, 01:17 PM	#7
Interested Party Member Join Date: Dec 2019 Location: Eastern Sierra Posts: 392	I can see it being a stag handle with these pictures. The shell guard of horsemen and dogs is an interesting and appropriate motif. This guard was cast? A knotwork of protection spells engraved on the blade. Thank you for the pictures.