A sword for comments

[bvieira]

Part2

[M ELEY]

Very nice Spanish (or Portuguese?) cup-hilt, Bruno! I believe this pattern was referred to as a 'sail hilt' and dates to the last quarter of the 18th century. As you pointed out, the blade, cup and guard/quillons look legit. Grip rewrapped, but well done. That pommel, though. It looks good for the piece, but I don't recall seeing this classic pommel form from cup-hilts of this period. Now I'll let the experts step in...

[bvieira]

Hello Meley tks for your opinion! I think it's spanish, but don't really know, only the blade I can assure it's german, by the inscription, Gio Knegt in solingen.

Regards,
BV

[M ELEY]

Most Spanish swords of this period had blades made in Solingen. Germany was basically producing for most of Europe at that time, with their blades being used in Scotland for basket-hilts, in American swords from the Revolutionary period, etc. I am pretty sure your sword has a model number, but i don't have access to Brincherhoff's book at the moment.

[bvieira]

Originally Posted by M ELEY

Most Spanish swords of this period had blades made in Solingen. Germany was basically producing for most of Europe at that time, with their blades being used in Scotland for basket-hilts, in American swords from the Revolutionary period, etc. I am pretty sure your sword has a model number, but i don't have access to Brincherhoff's book at the moment.

Yes from germany but also toledo, but germans often had more production quantity.

[Jim McDougall]

As well spotted by Capn Mark, this is a sort of variant version of the dragoon swords of the 18th century known as 'bilbo's, and this particular type is known as a 'sail' hilt. The Spanish had a propensity for adding colorful colloquial terms for hilt forms and clearly this one is mindful of a billowing sail.

The blade is most certainly from the Knecht family of Solingen and c. 1770s who traded in blades but did not make them (Mann, Wallace coll. 1962, p.268,325). Many, perhaps even most of their blades seem to have carried the 'Spanish motto' (Draw Me Not Without Reason etc.) which appears often on Spanish dragoon swords through the 18th century with wide use.

While Toledo's reputation for sword blades was renowned, it began to falter with the move of the Royal Court from there to Madrid in 1561. As the population dropped and plague at end of century accelerated deterioration of the industry, guilds dissolved and very few blades made. There were some German smiths from Solingen who worked out of Toledo in this time, but the economy collapse c. 1680 finished off the industry. ("By the Sword", R. Cohen, 2002, p.115).

Toledo produced virtually nothing after that, but Carlos III established a manufactory in 1780, but not producing blades as before, mostly munitions grade sidearms.

The hilt on this example appears a hybrid of the more common 'bilbo' hilt, a military arming sword with wire wrapped (enclosed by four posts) grip, a bilobate guard, but with the straight quillon bars of the cup hilt.
The oblate pommel with capstan resembles the cup hilt types of the 17th century, but Spanish traditionalism carried popular elements and styles over many years.

The attached are (1) a 'bilbo' type sword of 18th century with the 'sail' hilt but note the alternating curve quillons of the more standard 'bilbo'.
(2) the more familiar late 17th early 18th c. cup hilt with straight rapier quillons. By the early 18th century, the thin rapier blades had given way to the heavier dragoon blades to become arming military swords.
(3) the 'standard' bilbo (note quillons) which is often regarded as a c.1769 pattern but was in use 1728 and perhaps earlier. Regulation patterns follow the 'official' regulations, which usually only recognized types already long in use.

A beautiful and intriguing example!!! and I would say original and assembled using components at hand for an officer as often the case with remotely based armorers, either in the colonies or rural areas in Spain with remotely stationed units.

[bvieira]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

As well spotted by Capn Mark, this is a sort of variant version of the dragoon swords of the 18th century known as 'bilbo's, and this particular type is known as a 'sail' hilt. The Spanish had a propensity for adding colorful colloquial terms for hilt forms and clearly this one is mindful of a billowing sail.

The blade is most certainly from the Knecht family of Solingen and c. 1770s who traded in blades but did not make them (Mann, Wallace coll. 1962, p.268,325). Many, perhaps even most of their blades seem to have carried the 'Spanish motto' (Draw Me Not Without Reason etc.) which appears often on Spanish dragoon swords through the 18th century with wide use.

While Toledo's reputation for sword blades was renowned, it began to falter with the move of the Royal Court from there to Madrid in 1561. As the population dropped and plague at end of century accelerated deterioration of the industry, guilds dissolved and very few blades made. There were some German smiths from Solingen who worked out of Toledo in this time, but the economy collapse c. 1680 finished off the industry. ("By the Sword", R. Cohen, 2002, p.115).

Toledo produced virtually nothing after that, but Carlos III established a manufactory in 1780, but not producing blades as before, mostly munitions grade sidearms.

The hilt on this example appears a hybrid of the more common 'bilbo' hilt, a military arming sword with wire wrapped (enclosed by four posts) grip, a bilobate guard, but with the straight quillon bars of the cup hilt.
The oblate pommel with capstan resembles the cup hilt types of the 17th century, but Spanish traditionalism carried popular elements and styles over many years.

The attached are (1) a 'bilbo' type sword of 18th century with the 'sail' hilt but note the alternating curve quillons of the more standard 'bilbo'.
(2) the more familiar late 17th early 18th c. cup hilt with straight rapier quillons. By the early 18th century, the thin rapier blades had given way to the heavier dragoon blades to become arming military swords.
(3) the 'standard' bilbo (note quillons) which is often regarded as a c.1769 pattern but was in use 1728 and perhaps earlier. Regulation patterns follow the 'official' regulations, which usually only recognized types already long in use.

A beautiful and intriguing example!!! and I would say original and assembled using components at hand for an officer as often the case with remotely based armorers, either in the colonies or rural areas in Spain with remotely stationed units.

Many tks for your opinion and historical information! Very complete and logical.

BV