1780 heavy Cavalry Officer Sword

Bryce · 22nd October 2023, 12:02 PM

G'day Jim,
I wonder if hilts like mine may have helped inspire whoever came up with the 1796 ladder hilt design?
Cheers,
Bryce

Jim McDougall · 22nd October 2023, 12:48 PM

Hi Bryce,
It sure seems plausible in some degree, and hilt designs in certain categories might be similar structurally, but simple embellishments added or changed.
In that period of the 18th century, it does seem the officers were extremely focused on fashion, and followed the styling found with the gentleman's small sword hilts , with many parallels in the forms. I think the silver hilts as shown in Southwick as a key reference illustrates well these design orientations.

I think the more pragmatic designs in the troopers sabers on 1796 with simple strirrup hilt became embellished with simple added guard bars which became the M1821/1829 (production stalled c. 1825 with issues in both light and heavy troopers (bowl guard) versions). The officers sabers however remained as the M1822, also with three bar design. These added bars also formed the basis for the infantry officers saber hilt, which became later known as the 'gothic' hilt in the arms writer jargon in the same manner as 'honeysuckle' hilt probably in the same manner in the Victorian era.

For me the hilt design motivations were always intriguing, and I recall the mysterious 'five ball hilt' of the infantry officer 'spadroons' of c. 1780 and the 'five ball hilt'. I got the notion that there might be a Masonic connection with the number five that might be subtly represented ( Freemasonry was pretty well established with officers and gentry of the period). When I discussed the idea with Robson, he politely suggested the idea as a bit 'fanciful' and that the design was simply 'aesthetic'. It seems that Blair and May approached these hilts in a article in JAAS (cant recall issue offhand) but could not describe a reliable source for the design.

In further support of my 'Masonic' idea, there was a strong solidarity in Freemasonry between the British and French lodges which surmounted national or political disparities. In what appears a singular instance of the French adopting a design 'from' the British, they had hilts of this design which they termed l'Anglaise.

My apologies for the tirade on hilt designs, just expounding a bit on some of my obsessions over the years

Bryce · 23rd October 2023, 12:27 AM

G'day Jim,
I have also wondered about Masonic connections with some sword decoration from the period.

The 1796 ladder hilt in the comparison photo I posted above was sold in a Wallis and Wallis sale in 1972. It is described thus "pierced honeysuckle guard", so the term was in use at least as far back as that.
Cheers,
Bryce

Jim McDougall · 23rd October 2023, 04:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryce

G'day Jim,
I have also wondered about Masonic connections with some sword decoration from the period.

The 1796 ladder hilt in the comparison photo I posted above was sold in a Wallis and Wallis sale in 1972. It is described thus "pierced honeysuckle guard", so the term was in use at least as far back as that.
Cheers,
Bryce

Hi Bryce,
Pretty sure John Wilkinson-Latham used the term in 1967 in his book, and if I recall he was profoundly influenced by Charles Ffoulkes who wrote in 1938, so hard to say just when the term entered the British arms lexicon.
Again, I had one of those ladder hilts years back, should never have let it go!

With the number five, it was both a sacred and mystical number well known in Freemasonry, and followed by the numbers 3 and 7. In the French versions of the beaded hilt some had seven beads.
As mentioned, and piquing my curiosity is the number 3 and the latter F seemingly randomly placed on the blade of my lionhead dragoon officers sword.
With the seal or star of Solomon on Wilkinson swords, I was assured by Mr.Wilkinson-Latham it had nothing to do with Masonry, but the ancient symbol of interlocking triangles. This use of ancient symbolism was of course inherent in Masonic doctrines.

Best,
Jim

Jim McDougall · 5th November 2023, 06:16 PM

Going through old files, I found this from nearly 30 years ago. It was listed as a dragoon officers sword when acquired in late 70s (1770-80).
Neumann (277.S) called it an English horseman sword 1780-95 with an identical hilt structure but with faceted pommel.
Robson, (1975) showed a similar hilt suggesting this was the M1788 'heavy' cavalry hilt if i recall.

As earlier noted, British cavalry were termed dragoons, with only the 'light dragoons' beginning after 1759, the heavier troops termed dragoon guards if I understand correctly. The terms light and heavy cavalry came into use with the 1796 regulations.

Obviously the spherical pommel is incorrect, and I never could figure where it might have come from.

JT88 · 16th December 2023, 11:37 PM

Hi all, it's been awhile. I've been researching a new piece I own. It is a Drury-made eagle head with a short, cutlass/hanger-type blade.

I came to this thread because I noticed its guard I would call a "slotted S-type" very similar to these older cavalry blades.

However, the signature should date this to 1792 -

Despite no naval markings, the type of blade that is late points to naval service. The British infantry had already switched to a "cut and thrust" blade, and British naval swords wouldn't be standardized until 1805.

Now, there could also be a US connection, given the eagle/head. Someone knowledgeable about US weapons said the eagle head looked "Thurkle-like."

I'd possibly think a period composite, as Drury was a cutler and may have simply put the pieces together for a client. The peen is well-aged, and the gilt uniform where it is not worn.

Thanks for the look!

Jim McDougall · 17th December 2023, 02:38 AM

Interesting composite, and the pommel is indeed a 'Francis Thurkle" eagle head
("The American Eagle Pommel Sword 1794-1830" Andrew Mowbray ,1988, p.59-61).

Not sure why this blade would be deemed 'naval' though of course anything is possible. Officers had notable latitude in the style of their weapons, so the standardization of these typically did not apply beyond reasonable similarity to regulation forms.

Francis Thurkle was indeed a prominent supplier to US market and of course the 'eagle heads' were prevalent. While this style eagle head was attributed to Thurkle, it is known that Dru Drury Jr. and his son William, working at 32 Strand, corner of Villers street, Westminster, often subcontracted to goldsmiths/silversmiths to decorate their hilts.

Thurkle hilts seem to have been primarily ivory either reeded or checkered, and most often on spadroon type swords. The dragoon officer sword by Kinman I posted earlier had this type scrolled bars in guard and the banding over rayskin grip, but earlier than this example (1770s).

In the late 1790s these kinds of stepped tip (yelman, widened in the manner of Ottoman blades also as popular in India) were in vogue with British officers. This is likely a Solingen import using the talismanic/magic theme popular in Europe from mid 1700s.

This is apparently an officers sword using a Solingen blade and while mounted by the Drury firm using Thurkle pommel. I am not sure all eagle heads went only to American market, but obviously prevalent.

22nd October 2023, 12:02 PM	#1
Bryce Member Join Date: Aug 2017 Location: North Queensland, Australia Posts: 174	G'day Jim, I wonder if hilts like mine may have helped inspire whoever came up with the 1796 ladder hilt design? Cheers, Bryce Attached Images

5th November 2023, 06:16 PM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,785	Going through old files, I found this from nearly 30 years ago. It was listed as a dragoon officers sword when acquired in late 70s (1770-80). Neumann (277.S) called it an English horseman sword 1780-95 with an identical hilt structure but with faceted pommel. Robson, (1975) showed a similar hilt suggesting this was the M1788 'heavy' cavalry hilt if i recall. As earlier noted, British cavalry were termed dragoons, with only the 'light dragoons' beginning after 1759, the heavier troops termed dragoon guards if I understand correctly. The terms light and heavy cavalry came into use with the 1796 regulations. Obviously the spherical pommel is incorrect, and I never could figure where it might have come from. Attached Images

16th December 2023, 11:37 PM	#6
JT88 Member Join Date: Jun 2021 Posts: 52	Hi all, it's been awhile. I've been researching a new piece I own. It is a Drury-made eagle head with a short, cutlass/hanger-type blade. I came to this thread because I noticed its guard I would call a "slotted S-type" very similar to these older cavalry blades. However, the signature should date this to 1792 - Despite no naval markings, the type of blade that is late points to naval service. The British infantry had already switched to a "cut and thrust" blade, and British naval swords wouldn't be standardized until 1805. Now, there could also be a US connection, given the eagle/head. Someone knowledgeable about US weapons said the eagle head looked "Thurkle-like." I'd possibly think a period composite, as Drury was a cutler and may have simply put the pieces together for a client. The peen is well-aged, and the gilt uniform where it is not worn. Thanks for the look! Attached Images

22nd October 2023, 12:48 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,785	Hi Bryce, It sure seems plausible in some degree, and hilt designs in certain categories might be similar structurally, but simple embellishments added or changed. In that period of the 18th century, it does seem the officers were extremely focused on fashion, and followed the styling found with the gentleman's small sword hilts , with many parallels in the forms. I think the silver hilts as shown in Southwick as a key reference illustrates well these design orientations. I think the more pragmatic designs in the troopers sabers on 1796 with simple strirrup hilt became embellished with simple added guard bars which became the M1821/1829 (production stalled c. 1825 with issues in both light and heavy troopers (bowl guard) versions). The officers sabers however remained as the M1822, also with three bar design. These added bars also formed the basis for the infantry officers saber hilt, which became later known as the 'gothic' hilt in the arms writer jargon in the same manner as 'honeysuckle' hilt probably in the same manner in the Victorian era. For me the hilt design motivations were always intriguing, and I recall the mysterious 'five ball hilt' of the infantry officer 'spadroons' of c. 1780 and the 'five ball hilt'. I got the notion that there might be a Masonic connection with the number five that might be subtly represented ( Freemasonry was pretty well established with officers and gentry of the period). When I discussed the idea with Robson, he politely suggested the idea as a bit 'fanciful' and that the design was simply 'aesthetic'. It seems that Blair and May approached these hilts in a article in JAAS (cant recall issue offhand) but could not describe a reliable source for the design. In further support of my 'Masonic' idea, there was a strong solidarity in Freemasonry between the British and French lodges which surmounted national or political disparities. In what appears a singular instance of the French adopting a design 'from' the British, they had hilts of this design which they termed l'Anglaise. My apologies for the tirade on hilt designs, just expounding a bit on some of my obsessions over the years

23rd October 2023, 12:27 AM	#3
Bryce Member Join Date: Aug 2017 Location: North Queensland, Australia Posts: 174	G'day Jim, I have also wondered about Masonic connections with some sword decoration from the period. The 1796 ladder hilt in the comparison photo I posted above was sold in a Wallis and Wallis sale in 1972. It is described thus "pierced honeysuckle guard", so the term was in use at least as far back as that. Cheers, Bryce

17th December 2023, 02:38 AM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,785	Interesting composite, and the pommel is indeed a 'Francis Thurkle" eagle head ("The American Eagle Pommel Sword 1794-1830" Andrew Mowbray ,1988, p.59-61). Not sure why this blade would be deemed 'naval' though of course anything is possible. Officers had notable latitude in the style of their weapons, so the standardization of these typically did not apply beyond reasonable similarity to regulation forms. Francis Thurkle was indeed a prominent supplier to US market and of course the 'eagle heads' were prevalent. While this style eagle head was attributed to Thurkle, it is known that Dru Drury Jr. and his son William, working at 32 Strand, corner of Villers street, Westminster, often subcontracted to goldsmiths/silversmiths to decorate their hilts. Thurkle hilts seem to have been primarily ivory either reeded or checkered, and most often on spadroon type swords. The dragoon officer sword by Kinman I posted earlier had this type scrolled bars in guard and the banding over rayskin grip, but earlier than this example (1770s). In the late 1790s these kinds of stepped tip (yelman, widened in the manner of Ottoman blades also as popular in India) were in vogue with British officers. This is likely a Solingen import using the talismanic/magic theme popular in Europe from mid 1700s. This is apparently an officers sword using a Solingen blade and while mounted by the Drury firm using Thurkle pommel. I am not sure all eagle heads went only to American market, but obviously prevalent.