Variations of famous Viking-era swordsmiths' names

vilhelmsson · 3rd November 2019, 10:58 PM

Hello Ibrahiim,

I stand by my analysis. All experts have bias. And I tried to be gentle in my analysis.

A semi-mythical 10th century Norwegian king, central to the contrived Norwegian conversion narrative of the sagas, did not control Baltic, or Volga, trade far outside of his zone of power, and commission Ulfberht blades that existed one hundred years before he was born. And that's still a nice way of saying it.

The dominant theory is still probably the most likely because there is no good evidence to suggest otherwise: Ulfberht was the name of an abbot, yet to be discovered, who ran a good forge on the Lower Rhine.

It doesn't look like the Bonham's Ingelrii sold, even though it has some unique features.

Reventlov, do you happen to have the title of the French article (I'm not good at searching for sources in other languages unless they're in a bibliography or footnote)? Ingelrii's workshop being in Cologne, on the Lower Rhine, would draw a nice connection to the theorized location of the Ulfberht workshop.

One comparison between Ulfberhts and Ingelriis is that all Ingelriis follow a similar inlay pattern on the blade face opposite the Ingelrii inlay whereas Ulfberhts are more arbitrary. An interesting study into the connection between Ulfberhts and Ingelriis could be to trace the estimated evolution of opposite side inlay on Ulfberhts to see if it evolves into the pattern observed on Ingelriis.

If there is a connection between Ulfberhts and the Passau Wolf, it could be linked to the Fossa Carolina, which may have linked the Rhine and Danube river basins. But the wolf is a common martial motif.

Reventlov · 4th November 2019, 03:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vilhelmsson

Reventlov, do you happen to have the title of the French article (I'm not good at searching for sources in other languages unless they're in a bibliography or footnote)? Ingelrii's workshop being in Cologne, on the Lower Rhine, would draw a nice connection to the theorized location of the Ulfberht workshop.

Yes, it's titled "L’armement occidental pendant la première croisade", by Olivier Bouzy, and is available online... The theory is mentioned in passing in a footnote, there is not much more than what I already repeated. I suspect this is just more wishful thinking, a word/name on the sword would be unusual enough to deserve comment from art historians even if unfamiliar with actual inlaid weaponry. Bouzy makes a (poor, in my opinion) argument for dating the window earlier than is accepted, and makes other errors: Hilda Ellis Davidson (author of The Sword in Anglo-Saxon England) is cited as "David Illis" for example.

Quote:

Originally Posted by vilhelmsson

One comparison between Ulfberhts and Ingelriis is that all Ingelriis follow a similar inlay pattern on the blade face opposite the Ingelrii inlay whereas Ulfberhts are more arbitrary. An interesting study into the connection between Ulfberhts and Ingelriis could be to trace the estimated evolution of opposite side inlay on Ulfberhts to see if it evolves into the pattern observed on Ingelriis.

Actually I disagree with this... Among the relatively small number of Ingelriis there is still notable variation (among examples that I have notes on). Some have interlaces between vertical bars, similar to Ulfberhts, but just as many have the interlace replaced with different styles of crosses, or more or fewer bars, or the whole is replaced with a text inscription.

vilhelmsson · 5th November 2019, 05:08 AM

Reventlov, Fair enough. It's unclear from my source whether it's all Ingelrii's found in one geographic location that all have the same composition on the opposite face or if it's all Ingelrii's with inlay on the opposite face, though the description you offer does not differ from the source's description.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 7th November 2019, 01:45 PM

I am quite fascinated in the study of this important weapons history which takes a bit of understanding since there are some strange languages involved such as OLD ENGLISH, WEST SAXON, NORTHUMBRIAN, (which I can understand quite well) OLD NORWEGIAN AND FRANKISH to name but few> I blame history teaching in the curriculum for this mess since I cannot recall a single fact from the Frankish period or the other language areas mentioned !! It wasn't taught.

I spent a few days searching in Beowolf this week as I was sure something would surface>>It didn't. ING means meadow but I think it carries a second meaning as a name perhaps the beginning of a makers name as Ingel points to the place ; ENGLAND. I cannot trace RII or RI... but logically could mean of England OR as suggested somewhere that the names VLFBERHT AND INGELRI may govern the middle range of Viking Swords and the later range> and I offer no idea why both names could appear on the same sword except where they may be overlapping periods .

This is not the name of the swordsmith since swords like this were being made for 300 years.

It is said they were Frankish weapons and spread through war and trade to other places. There is another school of thought which suggests that the Viking raids down the coasts of what is now the UK weren't actually Vikings PER SE... but were factions of breakaway nations from the Holy Roman Empire Warring nations around the Frankish Empire.

I found it interesting that the V at front of VLFBEHRT is its rightful spelling and that U only turned up in the I4thC pointing to counterfeit possibilities.

What is also interesting are the runes>

As well as sword names, and sword oaths, there was also a tradition of Vikings warriors inscribing runes on weapons, particularly swords. In the Icelandic Konungsbók, verse 6 of the Norse poem Sigrdrífumál teaches how to engrave runes on a sword to provide protection:

Heres a famous rune;

Sigrúnar þú skalt kunna,
ef þú vilt sigr hafa,
ok rísta á hialti hiǫrs,
sumar á véttrimum,
sumar á valbǫstum,
ok nefna tysvar Tý

Victory runes you must know
if you will have victory,
and carve them on the sword's hilt,
some on the grasp
and some on the inlay,
and name Tyr twice.

Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 7th November 2019, 03:29 PM

PLEASE SEE http://www.hurstwic.org/history/arti...king_sword.htm AS A USEFUL BACKGROUND SITE.

7th November 2019, 01:45 PM	#4
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	I am quite fascinated in the study of this important weapons history which takes a bit of understanding since there are some strange languages involved such as OLD ENGLISH, WEST SAXON, NORTHUMBRIAN, (which I can understand quite well) OLD NORWEGIAN AND FRANKISH to name but few> I blame history teaching in the curriculum for this mess since I cannot recall a single fact from the Frankish period or the other language areas mentioned !! It wasn't taught. I spent a few days searching in Beowolf this week as I was sure something would surface>>It didn't. ING means meadow but I think it carries a second meaning as a name perhaps the beginning of a makers name as Ingel points to the place ; ENGLAND. I cannot trace RII or RI... but logically could mean of England OR as suggested somewhere that the names VLFBERHT AND INGELRI may govern the middle range of Viking Swords and the later range> and I offer no idea why both names could appear on the same sword except where they may be overlapping periods . This is not the name of the swordsmith since swords like this were being made for 300 years. It is said they were Frankish weapons and spread through war and trade to other places. There is another school of thought which suggests that the Viking raids down the coasts of what is now the UK weren't actually Vikings PER SE... but were factions of breakaway nations from the Holy Roman Empire Warring nations around the Frankish Empire. I found it interesting that the V at front of VLFBEHRT is its rightful spelling and that U only turned up in the I4thC pointing to counterfeit possibilities. What is also interesting are the runes> As well as sword names, and sword oaths, there was also a tradition of Vikings warriors inscribing runes on weapons, particularly swords. In the Icelandic Konungsbók, verse 6 of the Norse poem Sigrdrífumál teaches how to engrave runes on a sword to provide protection: Heres a famous rune; Sigrúnar þú skalt kunna, ef þú vilt sigr hafa, ok rísta á hialti hiǫrs, sumar á véttrimum, sumar á valbǫstum, ok nefna tysvar Tý Victory runes you must know if you will have victory, and carve them on the sword's hilt, some on the grasp and some on the inlay, and name Tyr twice. Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi. Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 7th November 2019 at 02:00 PM.

3rd November 2019, 10:58 PM	#1
vilhelmsson Member Join Date: Feb 2019 Location: Bay Area Posts: 57	Hello Ibrahiim, I stand by my analysis. All experts have bias. And I tried to be gentle in my analysis. A semi-mythical 10th century Norwegian king, central to the contrived Norwegian conversion narrative of the sagas, did not control Baltic, or Volga, trade far outside of his zone of power, and commission Ulfberht blades that existed one hundred years before he was born. And that's still a nice way of saying it. The dominant theory is still probably the most likely because there is no good evidence to suggest otherwise: Ulfberht was the name of an abbot, yet to be discovered, who ran a good forge on the Lower Rhine. It doesn't look like the Bonham's Ingelrii sold, even though it has some unique features. Reventlov, do you happen to have the title of the French article (I'm not good at searching for sources in other languages unless they're in a bibliography or footnote)? Ingelrii's workshop being in Cologne, on the Lower Rhine, would draw a nice connection to the theorized location of the Ulfberht workshop. One comparison between Ulfberhts and Ingelriis is that all Ingelriis follow a similar inlay pattern on the blade face opposite the Ingelrii inlay whereas Ulfberhts are more arbitrary. An interesting study into the connection between Ulfberhts and Ingelriis could be to trace the estimated evolution of opposite side inlay on Ulfberhts to see if it evolves into the pattern observed on Ingelriis. If there is a connection between Ulfberhts and the Passau Wolf, it could be linked to the Fossa Carolina, which may have linked the Rhine and Danube river basins. But the wolf is a common martial motif.

5th November 2019, 05:08 AM	#3
vilhelmsson Member Join Date: Feb 2019 Location: Bay Area Posts: 57	Reventlov, Fair enough. It's unclear from my source whether it's all Ingelrii's found in one geographic location that all have the same composition on the opposite face or if it's all Ingelrii's with inlay on the opposite face, though the description you offer does not differ from the source's description.

7th November 2019, 03:29 PM	#5
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	PLEASE SEE http://www.hurstwic.org/history/arti...king_sword.htm AS A USEFUL BACKGROUND SITE.