A Rajput with his sword

Jim McDougall · 13th September 2007, 05:53 AM

Since the thread on Fernando's tulwar has brought up the tulwars of the Rajputs, I found this earlier post by Jens most interesting. The idea of the significance of decorative motif within the pommel makes me wonder if this one might suggest solar symbolism.
As I noted on the other thread, the three basic Rajput lines were said to descend from the Hindu gods of sun, moon and fire.

Gentlemen, please bring out the tulwars and lets see the pommel discs!
Also, we need to know more about the size of the discs. Some are exceedingly large.

Best regards,
Jim

Jeff D · 13th September 2007, 06:19 AM

Hi Jim and Jens (I hope you had a great trip).

I don't have much to add to this thread, but, I thought I would post this postcard that was on e-bay awhile ago. Maybe it can add to someones knowledge, who knows?

All the best,
Jeff

Jeff D · 13th September 2007, 06:30 AM

I forgot about this one as well. The caption at the bottom is "RAJPOOTS"

galvano · 13th September 2007, 08:55 AM

hi all
with heavy blade

Lew · 13th September 2007, 12:03 PM

Here are a few warriors.

Lew

Bill M · 13th September 2007, 01:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LOUIEBLADES

Here are a few warriors.

Lew

Lew,

I was amazed by the price these two pictures brought on eBay. I seem to remember it was in excess of $5,000 USD.

I wonder what they have been smoking to have glittering eyes like that? Spooky!

Dom · 13th September 2007, 02:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Gentlemen, please bring out the tulwars and lets see the pommel discs!
Also, we need to know more about the size of the discs. Some are exceedingly large.

not exceptional at all, find in Jeddah K.S.A some 25 years ago
in souk for antics near airport,
stored between cupboard and wall
every things was repainted during a refurbishing, imagine

diameter of pommel ± 2,75'

à +

Dom

Lew · 13th September 2007, 03:19 PM

Three of mine.

Lew

Bill M · 13th September 2007, 09:51 PM

A few more

Jim McDougall · 14th September 2007, 06:24 AM

Thank you so much guys for the outstanding response!!!
Does it not seem like many of the pommel decorative motifs reflect various suggestions of solar symbolism?
I notice that many of the Rajput associated tulwars have a vestigial extension from the pommel which seems reminiscent of those on the khanda, another sword form key to the Rajputs. The khanda is also key to the Sikhs, often closely associated with Rajputs, both effectively noted for forms of sword worship.

Lew and Bill, I think those Sikh photos, or some very similar, are found in the book "Warrior Saints" by P. Singh. The elaborately decorated turban is difficult to forget.

It seems that the earlier tulwar hilts tend to have smaller pommel discs, the larger forms of 19th c.

I do not have my trusty Pant at hand. Can anyone possibly post the illustrations of the varied tulwar hilt forms suggested by Pant?

All best regards,
Jim

Bill M · 14th September 2007, 08:06 AM

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=4071

Unfortunately these eBay auctions have expired. But I remember these pictures selling for over $5000 and another, similar set selling for $2000 plus. I'd like to find the book you mention, Jim.

Here are the other two pictures sold by the same seller

CourseEight · 15th September 2007, 03:58 AM

I thought I'd add mine, since no one has posted one like it yet. Oddly enough I didn't realize what was being represented until this post. Thanks kai!

Could be a sun on the inner part too. Two for the price of one?

--Radleigh

Bill M · 15th September 2007, 01:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

I do not have my trusty Pant at hand. Can anyone possibly post the illustrations of the varied tulwar hilt forms suggested by Pant?

All best regards,
Jim

Jim, I would like to find a copy of "Warrior Saints," By Singh, if you have any leads. Google turned up nothing.

I'll look in my Pants and see what I can find.

Jim McDougall · 15th September 2007, 09:38 PM

Hi Bill,
I acquired this book a number of years ago and I believe was acquiring it from the author, Parmjidt Singh, who was actually the co-author. I do not have the book at hand and cannot recall the other author. It is a great book that is primarily lots of great illustrations, those I believe included (at least they do look very familiar). I think trying the British Amazon might help as it was published in London.

Thanks very much everyone for the great responses and sharing more examples. Hopefully we can get some groupings and consistancies going. I am hoping that someone with Pant could post the several variations he has assigned so that we might use these as a benchmark. Although the terminology may or may not be accurately applied, it is the only attempt to standardize Indian tulwars hilts typologically and does serve well in that regard.

I am still unclear on the pommel dish size, and it seems that it has been suggested that larger forms are essentially later, c 19th c. Are we comfortable with that assertion or would the size be more likely to suggest a regional preference?

I am still intrigued by the comment made by Ariel on the other tulwar thread noting that quillons with slightly downward slope on tulwars suggest an earlier example. It seems that that view, while apparantly held by some, may be from a resource we are unable to locate. Can anyone shed any light on this feature?

Best regards,
Jim

13th September 2007, 06:19 AM	#2
Jeff D Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: B.C. Canada Posts: 473	Hi Jim and Jens (I hope you had a great trip). I don't have much to add to this thread, but, I thought I would post this postcard that was on e-bay awhile ago. Maybe it can add to someones knowledge, who knows? All the best, Jeff Attached Images

13th September 2007, 06:30 AM	#3
Jeff D Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: B.C. Canada Posts: 473	I forgot about this one as well. The caption at the bottom is "RAJPOOTS" Attached Images

13th September 2007, 08:55 AM	#4
galvano Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 177	my tulwar hi all with heavy blade Attached Images

13th September 2007, 12:03 PM	#5
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Here are a few warriors. Lew Attached Images

13th September 2007, 03:19 PM	#8
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Three of mine. Lew Attached Images

13th September 2007, 05:53 AM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,800	Since the thread on Fernando's tulwar has brought up the tulwars of the Rajputs, I found this earlier post by Jens most interesting. The idea of the significance of decorative motif within the pommel makes me wonder if this one might suggest solar symbolism. As I noted on the other thread, the three basic Rajput lines were said to descend from the Hindu gods of sun, moon and fire. Gentlemen, please bring out the tulwars and lets see the pommel discs! Also, we need to know more about the size of the discs. Some are exceedingly large. Best regards, Jim

13th September 2007, 09:51 PM	#9
Bill M Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: USA Georgia Posts: 1,599	A few more Attached Images

14th September 2007, 06:24 AM	#10
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,800	Thank you so much guys for the outstanding response!!! Does it not seem like many of the pommel decorative motifs reflect various suggestions of solar symbolism? I notice that many of the Rajput associated tulwars have a vestigial extension from the pommel which seems reminiscent of those on the khanda, another sword form key to the Rajputs. The khanda is also key to the Sikhs, often closely associated with Rajputs, both effectively noted for forms of sword worship. Lew and Bill, I think those Sikh photos, or some very similar, are found in the book "Warrior Saints" by P. Singh. The elaborately decorated turban is difficult to forget. It seems that the earlier tulwar hilts tend to have smaller pommel discs, the larger forms of 19th c. I do not have my trusty Pant at hand. Can anyone possibly post the illustrations of the varied tulwar hilt forms suggested by Pant? All best regards, Jim

14th September 2007, 08:06 AM	#11
Bill M Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: USA Georgia Posts: 1,599	http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=4071 Unfortunately these eBay auctions have expired. But I remember these pictures selling for over $5000 and another, similar set selling for $2000 plus. I'd like to find the book you mention, Jim. Here are the other two pictures sold by the same seller Attached Images Last edited by Bill Marsh; 14th September 2007 at 09:04 AM.

15th September 2007, 03:58 AM	#12
CourseEight Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Coral Springs, FL Posts: 222	I thought I'd add mine, since no one has posted one like it yet. Oddly enough I didn't realize what was being represented until this post. Thanks kai! Could be a sun on the inner part too. Two for the price of one? --Radleigh Attached Images

15th September 2007, 09:38 PM	#14
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,800	Hi Bill, I acquired this book a number of years ago and I believe was acquiring it from the author, Parmjidt Singh, who was actually the co-author. I do not have the book at hand and cannot recall the other author. It is a great book that is primarily lots of great illustrations, those I believe included (at least they do look very familiar). I think trying the British Amazon might help as it was published in London. Thanks very much everyone for the great responses and sharing more examples. Hopefully we can get some groupings and consistancies going. I am hoping that someone with Pant could post the several variations he has assigned so that we might use these as a benchmark. Although the terminology may or may not be accurately applied, it is the only attempt to standardize Indian tulwars hilts typologically and does serve well in that regard. I am still unclear on the pommel dish size, and it seems that it has been suggested that larger forms are essentially later, c 19th c. Are we comfortable with that assertion or would the size be more likely to suggest a regional preference? I am still intrigued by the comment made by Ariel on the other tulwar thread noting that quillons with slightly downward slope on tulwars suggest an earlier example. It seems that that view, while apparantly held by some, may be from a resource we are unable to locate. Can anyone shed any light on this feature? Best regards, Jim