SLÉWAH KERIS

Richard Furrer · 26th October 2019, 01:54 AM

Wonderful. Makes me want to go to Indonesia.

Has the "Bab Pandameling Duwung" been published? Do you think this would ever happen?

Yours,
Ric

Seerp Visser · 28th October 2019, 11:20 PM

The Keris is welded in layers, two sides containing iron(s) with pamor material and in the center a layer of steel (most times).
However to know the number of layers the sides of a Keris contain, multiplying the number of layers before welding, times the number of folds gives an idea but does not give a correct number of layers as result.
The more times the material is folded, the larger the deviaton between the real number of layers and the calculated.

When an Empu, makes a package (stack) of three layers of iron with between them two layers of pamor material and he folds this once, then the new formed bar, after welding, has five layers of iron and four layers of pamor.
The middle layer is a layer of one material, thicker but one layer.
So the total number is nine layers and not ten.

The thickness of the layers will differ more after each weld. The layers on the outside of the stack oxidize a lot. After each weld, the package will lose about five percent of its weight. The inner layers of iron as well as the pamor layers are protected against oxidation (exept from the thin ends facing the outside of the package).

After some welds, the material of the iron layers on the outside has burned away and the pamor comes on the outside of the package. The pamor will also oxidize the next weld.

The photographs of the samples show the effects. The number of layers is 29 instead of a calculated number of fourty. A large difference.

In 1904 Dr. Groneman counted the number of layers of pamor material only, not all the layers. A better way, but not perfect too since some burn away.

In the past the empus were very carefully in welding, because the iron and the pamor was relatively quite expensive.
Modern empu's spill more material as the photograph of a welding stroke of an empu shows.The sparks are fluid metal.

Dr. Groneman describes that Karja di Krama starts with about 2 kg material, pamor and iron. Modern empu's start sometimes with more than 6 kg material.

A. G. Maisey · 29th October 2019, 05:20 AM

That is an interesting way of counting Seerp, and I guess it could be a valid way of counting, depending upon where one lives and upon one's background.

When we discuss this subject in English we use the word "layer", and there can be a couple of different ways in which to understand the word "layer", but in Javanese the word we use is "sap", and sap can be understood as an item (ie, layer) in a stack, or as an item in a row.

If we start to produce pamor with just two layers of iron plus one layer of contrasting material we have 3 layers of material, if we weld that stack of three layers, cut it in half, and place the two halves one on top of the other, we have 3 + 3 = 6 layers, if we then weld the two pieces of iron & contrasting material together, cut this block in half, we have two pieces of iron and contrasting material each of which has 6 layers of material, so, 6 + 6 = 12. Counting in this way, that is by always just cutting (or bending) the material in half, and counting total layers of material, 8 doublings will give us 384 nominal layers of material.

The point is this:- just because two layers of iron are joined together does not make those two layers one layer, it is still two layers, and if the side of the forging is polished, etched and examined under magnification, those two layers will be seen.

But then, in the counting of pamor layers we do not count total material layers, we only count the layers of contrasting material, and we only count that contrasting material on one side of the blade.

In a Surakarta keris the number of sap of contrasting material should be 128. There are various ways in which to reach this number of 128, but ideally it should be reached by 8 doublings, the usual way that this is done is by a 1 > 2 > 4 > 8 > 16 > 32 > 64 > 128 progression. The number of doublings is significant, because the number 8 is the number of the naga, and incidentally, also of the elephant, in the Candra Sangkala.

Yes, there is always a loss of material when a weld is taken, but the important thing is the nominal layers, not the actual layers, and more important again is how that nominal number of layers was reached.

It is all a matter of perspective.

Of course, for commercially produced keris, and keris that are not made as pusaka or for some other special reason, how the pamor is welded is not particularly important, only economy and the end result matter. However, the number of layers of pamor is the number of sap of contrasting material, it is not the total number of layers of material, no matter how that count is carried out.

28th October 2019, 11:20 PM	#2
Seerp Visser Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: Belgium Posts: 37	Layers, layers, layers The Keris is welded in layers, two sides containing iron(s) with pamor material and in the center a layer of steel (most times). However to know the number of layers the sides of a Keris contain, multiplying the number of layers before welding, times the number of folds gives an idea but does not give a correct number of layers as result. The more times the material is folded, the larger the deviaton between the real number of layers and the calculated. When an Empu, makes a package (stack) of three layers of iron with between them two layers of pamor material and he folds this once, then the new formed bar, after welding, has five layers of iron and four layers of pamor. The middle layer is a layer of one material, thicker but one layer. So the total number is nine layers and not ten. The thickness of the layers will differ more after each weld. The layers on the outside of the stack oxidize a lot. After each weld, the package will lose about five percent of its weight. The inner layers of iron as well as the pamor layers are protected against oxidation (exept from the thin ends facing the outside of the package). After some welds, the material of the iron layers on the outside has burned away and the pamor comes on the outside of the package. The pamor will also oxidize the next weld. The photographs of the samples show the effects. The number of layers is 29 instead of a calculated number of fourty. A large difference. In 1904 Dr. Groneman counted the number of layers of pamor material only, not all the layers. A better way, but not perfect too since some burn away. In the past the empus were very carefully in welding, because the iron and the pamor was relatively quite expensive. Modern empu's spill more material as the photograph of a welding stroke of an empu shows.The sparks are fluid metal. Dr. Groneman describes that Karja di Krama starts with about 2 kg material, pamor and iron. Modern empu's start sometimes with more than 6 kg material. Attached Images

26th October 2019, 01:54 AM	#1
Richard Furrer Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Sturgeon Bay, Wisconsin Posts: 163	Wonderful. Makes me want to go to Indonesia. Has the "Bab Pandameling Duwung" been published? Do you think this would ever happen? Yours, Ric

29th October 2019, 05:20 AM	#3
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,736	That is an interesting way of counting Seerp, and I guess it could be a valid way of counting, depending upon where one lives and upon one's background. When we discuss this subject in English we use the word "layer", and there can be a couple of different ways in which to understand the word "layer", but in Javanese the word we use is "sap", and sap can be understood as an item (ie, layer) in a stack, or as an item in a row. If we start to produce pamor with just two layers of iron plus one layer of contrasting material we have 3 layers of material, if we weld that stack of three layers, cut it in half, and place the two halves one on top of the other, we have 3 + 3 = 6 layers, if we then weld the two pieces of iron & contrasting material together, cut this block in half, we have two pieces of iron and contrasting material each of which has 6 layers of material, so, 6 + 6 = 12. Counting in this way, that is by always just cutting (or bending) the material in half, and counting total layers of material, 8 doublings will give us 384 nominal layers of material. The point is this:- just because two layers of iron are joined together does not make those two layers one layer, it is still two layers, and if the side of the forging is polished, etched and examined under magnification, those two layers will be seen. But then, in the counting of pamor layers we do not count total material layers, we only count the layers of contrasting material, and we only count that contrasting material on one side of the blade. In a Surakarta keris the number of sap of contrasting material should be 128. There are various ways in which to reach this number of 128, but ideally it should be reached by 8 doublings, the usual way that this is done is by a 1 > 2 > 4 > 8 > 16 > 32 > 64 > 128 progression. The number of doublings is significant, because the number 8 is the number of the naga, and incidentally, also of the elephant, in the Candra Sangkala. Yes, there is always a loss of material when a weld is taken, but the important thing is the nominal layers, not the actual layers, and more important again is how that nominal number of layers was reached. It is all a matter of perspective. Of course, for commercially produced keris, and keris that are not made as pusaka or for some other special reason, how the pamor is welded is not particularly important, only economy and the end result matter. However, the number of layers of pamor is the number of sap of contrasting material, it is not the total number of layers of material, no matter how that count is carried out.